As a spin-off of Grant’s “Question” thread let me ask you a question. Pat mentioned he had a 3 day Operators course coming to my area in Dec. I am very interested in getting some training and wondered if this would be an appropriate class to take for someone with no previous formal training on a rifle. I have departmental handgun training but no rifle/carbine training. I don’t want to waste mine or other students and instructors time and money. If you have taken this class please let me know what you think. Thanks!
rd62,
I read the thread and it reads like Pat was recommending his class to you. I would strongly suggest that you get working now and get the gun handling down. Learn where all the controls are and what they are for. The owner’s manual is a very overlooked piece of equipment. I bet you can find aomeone on your PD that can run you through a basic this is a carbine class. Then it will be on you to get trigger time in before december. Be sure you can zero the carbine before the class and get in as many carbine practice sessions that you can.
I will also suggest buy the best equipment first and you will not have to buy anything else later.
Also Pat’s class is a How to Fight with a carbine. It is assumed that you can already shoot it. I’d say work hard for a month ot 2 and then make the decision for your self. ask Can I shoot this? Am I ready to learn how to fight with it?
I highly recommend his class, and hope you take the oppurtunity to get some training.
Thanks Jack. I’ve had the rifle for about three years and have spent as much range time as I have been able to with it. Although I’d always like more!! You know, time and ammo $$$
Anyway, I’m fairly versed in the rifles controls and basic functions. I have a friend in the dept who does M16 training for the National Guard and will ask him if he can’t give me a few basic lessons before I go, if I can.
I don’t care if you have ever touched a carbine before. Some of my best students have been in that exact situation. Having an open mind permits you to absorb information without having preconceived notions or pre existing bias to interfere with what is going on.
I do strongly prefer that you have some experience with guns in general (as you apparently do). Specifically, that you understand how the fun works and basic safety rules.
The carbine is teachable, and i can do that if you have the most important of all prerequisites- an open mind.
It would be nice if you have a zero on the gun. It would be nice if all did. However, that isn’t likely, so don’t sweat it.
Go to my w/s. Read “Coming to School”. It may answer many of your questions.
This isn’t about shooting- it is about fighting.
Having the good attitude is paramount.
There are a great many people who want to attend my classes or who have attended before that are on my NFE list- Not (insert slang word for copulation here) Ever.
They may have shot well, but they had difficulties in getting into the proper firing relay; would not accept instruction (too cool too train, as my friend the late Chris Dwiggins used to say) or generally took up so much of my time that others in class suffered. Not one of those was new to the carbine.
Others could not be vetted. Still others have made comments so bizarre on line that i could not ethically permit them to train with humans.
I will be doing less open classes as my time has become too precious and the priorities need realigning.
Take a class. If not mine, there are several people i will gladly recommend. But take a class.
Hope this helps.
No problem. Information sharing and keeping the good guys in the fight is what it is all about.
I’ll pst the class on Alumni, 10-8 and here when i get confirmation from the host.
I’ll broadly assume in a week or three. I’ll be TDY for a while, so i’ll get to it as soon as i can.
I’ll save a seat for you.
Don’t worry about anything! Pat is the most gentle and sensitive trainer you’ll ever meet! He even brings Vagisil for those whose nether regions get too uncomfortable (and to show it really will lube an M4 BCG!).
Joking aside, get familiar with your gear, get a 50 meter BZO and get in the class. You will learn more and have more fun in three days than you probably ever have before. Do go and read the articles on his website so you’ll be “spun up” before you get there.
I will be taking Mr. Rogers’ course this weekend. I have been wanting to take this course in a while and, like you, I was a bit apprehensive on what to expect myself as the last thing I want to do is hold everyone up. Granted, I did two enlistments in the Army and I would like to think that I am fairly familiar with the AR15 family of rifles/carbines, I never actually received formal training on the carbine and my issued rifles were M16A2.
Below are some articles that answered a lot of my questions. I read them a few times and made a preparation checklist.
Just a side note, and I believe it’s covered in Pat’s “coming to class”, but make sure you’re not only familiar with your rifle, but also your load bearing gear and your handgun, and how all three things work together.
I can’t tell you how many times I see guys show up to our matches, or classes I’ve attended, with chest-rigs that interfere with their handgun draw stroke, rifle slings that interfere with extracting mags from their LBE, etc., etc.
My suggestion is to keep your gear as you keep your rifle; have enough stuff to get the job done but not so much stuff as to hinder you. It’s a very fine line.
Pat’s class was, for me, a somewhat high volume of fire class, and I would always make sure that you have a way to carry at least 3 rifle mags and one in the gun. I ran an Eagle FB chest rig that held three rifle mags and I only went dry once in three days.
Thanks for the tips guys. I’ve read the article on Pat’s site and the above link from the class veteran.
I’m looking into gear selection now. As I am no longer with the department, and am not military, I’m thinking of gearing my selection more towards what I might need in a more defensive type situation. I’m looking at an Eagle M4 Patrol Bandoleer (4 M4 mags and 2 pistol mags) but am trying to figure out if it’ll work right with my 1911 mags (i’ve got an email in to Eagle). And maybe an Eagle Duty Evidence pouch for a dump pouch.
I’m also looking for a good IWB kydex 1911 holster. I have a Sidearmor that I got for off-duty carry of my issue G22, but don’t like the design of the newer Sidearmor offerings. I’m looking at a Comp-Tac C-T.A.C. I prefer to train as I fight, so I’d like to have something appropriate for my situation. Any gear suggestions are appreciated.
Abnk- I’m looking forward to it also
However, Mr Rogers was my Dad- my name is Pat…
The difference between the 25/ 50 yd zero is appx 1.5"
If you are on paper at 50 we can move you with little grief.
Wayne my Big Brother- Bite me! But, thanks for the kind words.
Rob- igh volume of fire…yeah, that’s it.
Re gear integration. I believe i have that story in the Sept SWAT magazine.
RD62- the Eagle patrol bandoleer is nice for carrying mission essential gear, and while some have used it during class it may not be optimal. If you decide to use it, no sweat.
However, a chest rig may make life easier for you.
Thanks to Todd Kennedy at Eagle and Stephen at ATS, i have some chest rigs available for use by students.
I also have several CSM Dump Pouches available. We don’t want to see guys suffer because of inefficient gear.
However, the No Souvenir rule is in effect.
You have plenty of time to get gear sorted out- if necessary we have some 6004, G Code SOC and other kydex available.
Thanks again for the info. I need to pick up a new holster for my 1911 anyway. I’m obviously new to the whole M4 gear, so thanks for the comments concerning my selections. Do you suggest any specific pieces to look at that would fit my needs? I don’t have the same needs as some of the LE/Mil guys. I’m just wanting a practical kit that will work in class and after, without a lot of things I don’t need, both for KISS and weight. And hopefully without breaking the bank.
My wife is gonna freak when this stuff starts rollin in. If you’ll have a cot at class, I may need to stay the night cause she might not let me back in the house!
I mean this in comparison to, say, Randy’s Carbine 101 where I think we fired something in the neighborhood of 700 rounds as compared to your class where some people fired nearly double that. I got through Randy’s class with a pair of single mag pouches on my belt and one in the gun, and rarely went to my second belt mag, but in your class I often found myself at the end of a drill with just a few rounds left in the mag in the gun and the rest of the mags in my dump pouch.
Which isn’t to say that one is better than the other, just that people should be prepared for, and know what, they are getting into.
The second time I did tactical Response’s Tactical Rifle course, now called Fighting Rifle, I used the Eagle Patrol Bandoler. That course is fiarly high round count with lots of mag changes for those unaware. I didnt have aproblem with the bando. as long as I wasnt trying to stuff partial mags back into the pouch. When I would attempt this, the velcro would roll back into the pouch and cause the mag to hang up. Other than that, there weren’t any issues with it. While I did keep a G2 and a spare Glock mag in the mag pouches, I used dedicated belt pouches for my pistol mags. In reagrds to your 1911 mags, you should be able to get 2 mags per mag pouch on it.
I’m also looking for a good IWB kydex 1911 holster. I have a Sidearmor that I got for off-duty carry of my issue G22, but don’t like the design of the newer Sidearmor offerings. I’m looking at a Comp-Tac C-T.A.C. I prefer to train as I fight, so I’d like to have something appropriate for my situation. Any gear suggestions are appreciated.
You know, time and ammo $$$