Paintball As A Training Supplement...

Ok, first things first before anyone gets their panties in a bunch.

Paintball is in no way a firearm substitute. Playing paintball (especially how most people do it) is as unrelated to actual combat as watching porn is to actually having sex. Now, with that out of the way, if done correctly you can learn some things from paintball.

Basically it is a “poor mans” or “civie” simunitions where you can practice certain skills that you cannot practice with firearms. The key difference is accuracy / velocity and the fact that you don’t use real weapons modified to fire simunitions.

For purposes of this discussion I will be talking about the US Army Alpha Black.

It is the same paintball marker in use by the US Army for some of their scenario training. Now to be quite honest I suspect much of the Army “paintball” stuff is a recruiting tool used to get paintball guys to places like Iraq, but there is also the consideration that it is far more cost effective than simunitions.

http://www.usarmypaintball.com/

In any case the average paintball marker is chronographed at 300 fps which is about half that of simunitions. In addition to that it fires a round ball from a smooth bore so it has all the disadvantages of a smoothbore musket vs. a rifled barrel. The practical accuracy you can expect at 20 yards looks like this.

Basically about a 12" group, so definitely a minute of man rather than a minute of angle situation and once you go beyond 50 yards you might as well be shooting paper airplanes and kites at people. Being able to hit anything inside your RDS field of view ends after that range and there is quite a bit of variation in flight of the projectile. That said, it is still dramatically superior to things like airsoft which have extremely dismal accuracy. The typical marker is also quite a bit lighter than your average M4 carbine but if you run a 20 oz. tank on the marker it is comparable.

There are also some dangerous habits that can be learned from paintball. 200 rounds hoppers make people trigger happy where they succeed simply by throwing the most paint in a general area until they get lucky. People hide behind cover that would never actually be cover if real rounds were flying. They also tend to run in the open at “safe ranges” of beyond 50 yards. And there are of course any other number of ways to treat it as a “game” where you would learn dangerous habits.

And of course your average paintballer tends to believe he has some kind of combat experience, but if you dropped him into Somalia with his “team” the realities of combat without rules would quickly teach them a short lesson they wouldn’t survive to profit from.

But despite all those limitations, there is something for the civilian shooter. It is a way to practice some force on force techniques that simply don’t exist at the range and it is an opportunity to actually put on all that gear and run around with it, something the armchair commando has never done and something most shooters don’t get a chance to do.

To understand the significance of the value of paintball training we must think of shooting at targets in the same way as a boxer or martial artist hitting a punching bag. Even if the target is moving, it is still just a target and that target will never engage you. To quote Bruce Lee…“boards don’t hit back.” Paintball is more like “sparring.” It isn’t exactly the same as real fighting, but you can definitely learn some things about real fighting by doing it.

And trying to shoot a guy who is trying not to get shot and is in turn trying to shoot you can teach you quite a bit about a few things, especially if approached in a serious and practical manner.

We tend to play simple team elimination at night in the woods. This is obviously not something you would want to risk with real firearms modified for simunitions even if you could get them. We play a stealth game where targets are searched for, stalked and engaged. In many cases they are engaged in a coordinated manner by teams using radio communications.

And just like in real life you miss some guy and he lights everyone up or your plan goes to hell and you have to improvise something. All valuable training skills that you can’t learn at the local rifle range. It is one thing to shoot accurately from the line at the range, or even during a stage in a practical shooting exercise, but it is a much different experience to haul ass 75 yards in a flanking move and try and hit two guys who are on the run trying to get to cover. And if you’ve never done it, you probably aren’t very good at it.

Some things that can be done to make it more realistic is to use 30 round loaders so you only have that many in your hopper at a given time. We’ve played many games where nobody reloaded another 30 rounds before everything was over. We count only hits and not sprays from hits on nearby trees or your weapon. But at the same time we count hits on a person even if they don’t break. Basically the bullet rule.

And of course paintball does allow for far more regular training than live firearms. This includes all the various rifle drills you currently do, but now can do in your backyard. The trigger won’t break exactly the same way and there is no recoil. But putting the RDS on your target and firing on that target tend to be something of a constant. Being able to do “move and shoot” exercises 5 times a week is something most people don’t have a chance to do, nor can they afford to even if they wanted. With paintball you can.

Being able to practice coordinated team efforts and related tactics is just another bonus. So if you have some regular shooting buddies, consider grabbing some alphas and coming up with some practical shooting exercises, just don’t try it indoors.

I’ve learned a lot about cover (and pie’ing from cover), shooting lanes, flanking and shooting under pressure from paintball. It doesn’t translate directly, but it’s better than sitting on the couch watching hockey.

I’ve played paintball for 8 years now, longer than I’ve been shooting self-defense/“fighting” guns.

To me, it’s just a game, and is about as useful for training as a video game is (it’s not). The tactics that work best in paintball do not readily apply to real life, and vice versa.

In my opinion, the only thing one could make an argument for that paintball does is teach you how to react quickly under pressure rather than the deadly human instinct of freezing. The rest is a whole different world with different rules.

If you play it as a “game” you would be correct. But I also think you didn’t read my original post very closely or you would have seen this:

Paintball is in no way a firearm substitute. Playing paintball (especially how most people do it) is as unrelated to actual combat as watching porn is to actually having sex. Now, with that out of the way, if done correctly you can learn some things from paintball.

Well that and IF approached correctly it allows you to practice certain “force on force” aspects that you could never prove otherwise.

I covered this in my original post but seems I just didn’t spell it out enough.

You can run exactly the same drills as MIL/LE with three different firearm substitutes:

Simunitions
Paintball
Airsoft

You can use all three as a “game” and absolutely learn nothing, or you can come up with exercises that are practical and realistic.

Obviously simunitions is the closest to real firearms and the best, most preferred option. The disadvantage is almost nobody on this forum has the opportunity to conduct that kind of training on their own whenever they want to

Paintball is the next best option and has reasonable close range applications (25 yards and inside). Unlike simunitions it is available to anyone. Again, even the military is currently using paintball for some scenario training.

Airsoft has only some applications given it’s very limited range and accuracy. You could benefit from some “in the room” drills and work on some basic handgun form but that is about all. The biggest disconnect is handguns recoil and airsoft does not. This is true of paintball markers but with a carbine the difference isn’t as dramatic.

I agree it doesn’t completely, but quite a few aspects does translate over to shooting.

Very very true. When I played NPPL and PSP back in the day, we would always communicate under pressure. I realized this at the Buffalo NPPL, the game got to 2 vs 7 man. Me and team mate were constantly calling out movements and positions when seven D1/Semi-Pro players were trying to hose us down. We ended up trading with them :smiley:

To add, I have no trouble with transitions and shooting on the move. All was emphasized in paintball. Snap shooting is incredibly helpful for barricade shooting. Locking down lanes playing as corner is similar to combat in dominating firing lanes. There’s a lot of benefits in paintball, based on my experience in tournament play.

Hopefully this thread won’t be deleted like the previous one…:rolleyes:

Interesting that you find yourself able to differentiate between “game” and “real life” (or perception thereof) in paintball but not in the action shooting sports, about which you have expressed concerns about “bad tactics” screwing up your training.

In reading your post, I don’t find much of anything in your list of benefits that would apply to my situation. I suppose if one is training for some kind of end-of-the-world fantasy, armed uprising, or other militaristic action the benefits you describe may be of value.

Personally I’d rather take a CQC course with my everyday carry gun (or one that most closely approximates same) and learn the skills that may help me survive in my every day life rather than a scenario wherein Russian paratroopers fall from the sky as their Cuban compatriots swarm over the border from Mexico (or whatever the 2011 equivalent may be).

Who did you play with? I played PSP from 2006-2009. Started off with FallOut, MW HateKrew then EDGE.

And I agree. IMO, Tournament Play translates to the real world more so than Rec Ball. I played Xball mostly, and Locking down a key lane, being able to move full speed with your gun up and shooting, communication(even with coaches) is VERY important… it was much more fun in 2006-2007 when we could still play at 15bps PSP Mode haha, that 10bps crap was BORING.

Years ago, I played a lot of “woods” ball. It was fun, good exercise and a good teacher on the use of cover, moving and shooting and flanking tactics.

I really don’t think it provides any more pluses than the above list.

A better choice for training/FoF is Airsoft. The guns are the same, have limited rounds and if you buy a gun that matches your carry weapon (which I did), you can use your existing holsters.

C4

Exactly. The faster paced Tournament paintball(especially the format called XBALL) teaches you how to move/shoot, be quick, work around cover, and work with a teammate or teammates.

The airsoft gas guns that are out that operate similar to the guns the are modeled after are the best way to train. I need to get a M&P model as that is what I’ve switched to over Glocks, still have my Glock gas gun.

Well at the risk of associating with the uncool crowd…:stuck_out_tongue:

I play paintball-on a team, scenario ball specifically (and no, I’m not a ‘tier 1’ wannabe:mad:).
I have never had a problem differentiating a sport from real life, and I highly agree with Rob- if I want to learn to fight with a gun, it’s going to be with instruction specifically for that.
Overall, it’s a sport I play to have fun and forget about everything else, so I’m not thinking about it as any sort of training exercise anyway.
However- there are definately some things you can at least get familiarization with, epsecially playing on a large scale with a lot of people.

For me, it’s given some insight into how much gear I can comfortably carry for a long time, as well as how I’ll move with it on. And that lousy foot wear really sucks.
Some basic communication/working with teammate.
It’ll teach you real quick how not to use cover when being shot at.
It’ll also give you a lot of examples of how bad people get tunnel vision- I never cease to be amazed at how focused people can get on one spot, to the point you can pretty much walk right up to them before they realize you’re there…
Probably some move & shoot- although for me that doesn’t translate as I use a marker with no stock, a 200+ rd. hopper, and shoots faster than I can pull the trigger…

FoF, at least in my exposure in airsoft and paintball isn’t terribly useful as a shooting/training aid. Really it only teaches you to get somewhat used to stress and the general idea of someone being able to hit you at greater than arms length distances. Tunnel vision is also a factor here, I’ve learned the .68 way that tunnel vision gets you hurt, so I always make an effort to scan alternate avenues of approach while keeping an eye on the last known location of the other guy. Little stuff like that that you don’t think about on the paper range, despite incessant ‘search and assess’ follow ups.

It will also teach you how to get small (though what you get small behind will often not be cover, so I wouldn’t say its teaching cover usage either) When BB’s start coming in, you feel like you can be the size of a mouse if you contort your body juuuust right. This is an all likelihood not true, but that won’t stop you squirming to take the shape of whatever tree trunk you’re behind.

At distance, its horrible, as you think you’re safe when in reality most of the stuff you do at 50+ yards would get you killed IRL assuming the other guy is a competent shot. You can still get hit, but its more like lobbing rounds at them and hoping something sticks, due to the horrible trajectory, not to mention the barnyard-sized accuracy.

Mag caps are too high to be really useful, though with airsoft you can always keep the mags down-loaded, but there’s no weapon manipulation to speak of, unless you’re buying VERY expensive stuff.

Recoil management is also unheard of, but to be honest, that’s not a deal breaker for me if the other problems could be fixed.

In short, in an indoors environment, airsoft shines, but take the distance 25 yards out, and you’re not going to get much benefit.

Paintball I feel is less beneficial, since the markers are awkward, dont feel like real guns, and the bulkier protective equipment makes it harder to maneuver.

Like I said, any of these is only useful to emphasize how you will respond under stress, keeping violence of action up, and teaching things like pieing corners and getting small behind stuff.

Actually you would be remembering wrong then. I pointed out that when engaged in shooting sports I had to mentally STOP playing the game and doing things such as pre planning the stage and had to treat it like real life where I would enter the stage with as little preparation as possible. This of course hurt my time scores (the game) but provided me with more realistic training.

In both cases it was the issue of mindset that I discussed. For some reason you didn’t quite grasp what I was trying to say and dismissed it. Also I don’t remember expressing too many concerns about “bad tactics” in scenario shooting screwing up my training, only that one had to be mindful of such things. I actually engage in scenario shooting about once a week.

If you were in a basic defensive situation, would you expect those people who have guns might move and shoot back at you? You don’t have to do our drills, you could custom tailor them to your expected needs. A paintball marker is simply a training aid (like simunitions) that lets you practice drills where people shoot back. I have no doubt that if you actually thought about it for a minute you could come up with several practical exercises.

Granted the “team” aspects have benefit mostly to the MIL/LE guys but I sometimes train for a lot of stuff that will likely never happen. If nothing else, once a week I spend a few hours running around with 40 lbs. of shit to carry and at least that is some exercise.

You are off on a very unrelated tangent. You also seem to be missing out on the fact that you could take many of the drills you currently do in FDCC and you can practice them OFF the range with targets that will move and return fire. The drill and exercise remains essentially the same. The kind of drills and scenarios you use it up to you. The only thing changes is now you can practice them more often and you have more realistic targets which move and return fire.

While the above is true, in my experience the extremely limited range and accuracy of airsoft (I was using Tokyo Maru’s not the ultra cheap stuff) negated all of those benefits for anything other than inside the room training.

Just as paintball is a huge step down in performance from simunitions, airsoft is a huge step down from paintball.

You are correct about Airsoft. It shines in doors and at close ranges outdoors.

C4

Really, the jist of this is that a person who takes their training seriously should probably at least be exposed to some sort of paintball/airsoft to get a hold of the ‘bigger picture’ that they don’t really get when practicing at the range. Just having a fixed direction that threats can emerge from is much different than having to be aware 360*. It’s foolish to dismiss it out of hand as being a game. Conversely, BB’s are not bullets, so everyone knows their lane. :wink:

All of the little things come together to paint a much bigger picture as far as what you have to deal with when other people are shooting at you. But the problem is that the equipment, and as a result, the nuances in tactics that it teaches, is not up to par, so I think mild exposure is the way to go, instead of using it to dump a sizable chunk of training time/budget into.

Couldn’t agree more. And that is why I suggested it as a training supplement and not a training alternative.

I think communication and field vision can be learned from paintball too. Nothin real useful as far as shooting or tactics. Maybe the cocept of being small behind cover.

Never intended to make it sound like it was a good training… especially the type of paintball I played for 10 years



At Phoenix PSP Open - parking lot of the University of Arizona Stadium

OK, it’s just a game but – if your not current or ex military it can be a good place to learn that some 14 year old can make you just as “dead” as the most hi-tech gillie suit wearing Tippman factory team member can. It forces you to deal quickly with changing situations, work as a team, pay attention to your equipment and it’s an opportunity learn from your mistakes. Most of us have day jobs that don’t provide any kind of rush and those black and blues just drive home any lesson you can glean from an afternoon in the woods or some converted factory. I’ve been out of it for a long while but many of those lessons sill stick in my head.
BTW: when I started playing we used 10 round tube rear feed, manual reset each time to reload one shot tree markers. When one of us got a 6 round Crossman revolver, he was the hot shit. Nobody dumped a hopper on full auto, there was no such thing. One at a time in close.

I prefer Airsoft as a training aid, partially due to weapon familiarity.

I also found a site that sells KAC Airsoft clones. Including 11.5’’ + URX 10 3/4’’ rail. Which closely matches my primary rifle.

Paintball is a lot different, and much more painful IMO.