I know this is M4Cabine.net and we all love M4 variants, but what is your preference and why when operating outside of the standard 0-250 envelope?
I’m not talking about getting hits. I know you can get hits at 1000yds with an iron-sighted AR.
But when you really, truly want to feel good about your ability to impact your target beyond the 250 yd effective range of an M4 with an Aimpoint, what do you grab?
.308? 6.8? .338?
Bolt or semi-auoto? Which and why?
I usually shoot a mid-length and 77s to 600 routinely, topped with a 3-9 Leupold TS-30A2.
A standard 20-inch will do the same. A 16- or 22-inch 7.62 AR-10T (to 600-800) if I just want to hear hits on steel E-types.
If I’m hunting whitetails, mulies, or pronghorns (at altitude) I’ll swing a 16-inch AR-10T or (most of the time) a 308 Remington 700.
The last elk cow I shot was with a 22-inch 308 with a suppressor, but I’ll probably use a TRG-42 in 338 Lapua if I need reach.
Ya, I was gonna say that with the bonded and TSX loads out there, a 16-20" AR can really reach out there (and be lethal).
C4
If I were to the state of pushing the/my limits with the m4, my next step would be a .308. like an LMT with a Leupold 2-10x
common round
accurate
lethal
whats not to like?
What target and what context? I am a little lost. What exactly are we shooting?
Good question! I think maybe the ‘bull’.
Bad guys far away or behind cover (auto glass maybe) or both. Deer or larger game past 200 yds.
Larry Vickers has made the point several times including in his class I attended that the M4 is a 200 yd weapon.
Do you guys believe that a 16" match barreled AR with heavy ammo takes the place of a bolt action .308?
Yeah. And 300 magnum and 30-06 and 260 Remington. Lots of others.
Yeah. And single shots.
I see you might be on the same thought process that I went through in regards to where your other thread was heading…since you’ve already brought up the topic here that I was going to build my point around in the other thread, then I’ll just continue here…
IRT an accurate AR pattern rifle, Sinister is (of course) right on the money about the effective range that you can get out of it using the heavy 77gr bullets. At that range, it really doesn’t matter what you use (OTM fragmenting round vs. modern bonded SP or TSX round) since they will all behave like FMJ after about 300m, as far as terminal ballistics go. Accuracy is the obvious main concern once terminal ballistics becomes a moot point.
Now enters the thought process where you think you need even more range (say a legit 1,000m gun), in which case you think you need a .308/.300WM/.338 ect…that’s fine and all, and more power to you if you want it, but I have just one question for you…
Under the pretense that you are a civilian in a hypothetical EOW scenario where taking a shot at long range is [hypothetically] justifible:
At what range do you feel it is more tactically sound to hold your shot and avoid a gunfight than to take the shot and announce your presence to the “enemy”?
I would bet if you answered that truthfully, and threw out the .001% chance that you HAVE to take a LONG range shot, then you would say that that range is well within the effective “envelope” of the M4…if you were active military, then the requirement to reach out further would most likely be there. But for a civvy, in even the worst hypothetical EOW scenario, I just don’t see it.
Ok, now I have context to go on. Yes, I know what Larry has said, and I tend to agree- to a point.
I know of several incidents in which a 5.56 rifle/carbine was used to ranges much greater then 200 yards and they were effective. Primarlily because of good ammo, optics and putting the rounds where they needed to go.
A properly built and accurate 16" AR with a good optic and ammo outshines a bolt action in my opinion.
In the civilian world, I tend to think of “reality” and the world I live in. There are very few if any scenarios in which a civilian is going to engage someone past 200 yards and be able to articulate and justify their actions in a court of law.
Don’t the modern 16-inch barreled .308 semi-autos (SCAR, MWS, SR-25) present a better progression than 5.56 carbine straight to bolt gun?
In terms of function, probably so, but in terms of cost and standardization, I say no. A precision AR15 and a precision. 308 bolt gun are about the same in terms of cost and standardization.
So I get the part about the range thing but the terminal ballistics thing…especially through a barrier still makes me question the 5.56. Otherwise, why do LE snipers run. 308’s instead of precision AR’s?
If I need the extra range and impact I grab my fal. Reliable and rugged, it works for me. Ymmv
Someone more qualified than me can answer that one, but with the quality of precision ARs and modern ammo out there now, as well as typical engagement distance, I’m not sure why that would be.
Im not sure. Isn’t the average range for LE around 70-100 yards?
concerning the 5.56 “effective” range, one of the Kyles - Lamb or DeFoor - I think, put forth their Rule of Fours, which states - 5.56 to 400 yards, .308 to 800, 300WM to 1200, and the big bore flavor-du-jour beyond that. makes pretty good sense in my book…
whatever the consensus, .308 not only increases effective range on targets in the open, it offers performance against barriers that the 5.56 doesn’t have at any range so I see a definite role for that. cost and availability have me backing away from the .260/6.8 and others.
for what you described, my personal view is that while the .308 performs very effectively in a bolt action, it loses versatility as a battle rifle to semi-auto platforms while giving up little accuracy. I’ll leave the bolt action to calibers larger than .308…
don’t quote me but I thought it was closer to 40 yards than 70-100…
When I attended my states basic police sniper classs in 2002 I was the only guy shooting an AR in a world of custom 700’s (which I also had then) and a few Savages. They sorta sneered at my homemade peashooter and thought I would falter at the 600. No can do. I was shooting a Krieger 20" barrel, JP trigger, and Black Hills 68 grainers. I gave up nothing and of course the timed events were easier for me. Currently I am shooting a Noveske Recon with a Giesselle and NightForce. For my rural environment it’s what i feel comfortable with. We are starting to see a few 5.56’s in the community but they are still the minority. FWIW the last time I read the average shot was about 53 yards. If you’re shooting at 100 to 500 regularly the “normal” range is a chip shot.
And within these “normal” ranges, you don’t lose much going with a modern bonded SP (or TSX) over a .308 IMO. It’s sorta like 9mm vs .45 at that point.