OR - Gun Confiscation Follow Up

Some of you may remember this thread that ended up getting closed: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=49225

Early on in that thread I said:

As a guy that actually lives in Medford Oregon, I can tell you there had to be a reason to take this precaution. The sheriff and city LE are generally very pro gun. It is a shall issue state. In fact the sheriff denied the paper access to the list of CHL holders here in the valley and forced it to court. Additionally, I have had my C3 sign offs in as little as an hour and a max of 3 days. Anyone notice the article wherein ODOT is refusing to discuss some issues? Anyone want to take a guess at who asked that these steps be taken? I also deal with ODOT regularly - region 3 (Medford) there’re pretty rational folks as well. There are very likely parts of this story that are not being told.

To be clear I knew a little some thing about the man in question, I support LE 100% in this case. The catch - what is the standard by which LE can arbitrarily (and likely illegally) step in like this. I think if Pyles gets a reasonable attorney he is going to get a pay day.

Here is a bit of follow up from this morning’s paper:

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100408/NEWS/4080312

Unsettling behavior in ODOT guns case detailed
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April 08, 2010
Anita Burke
By Anita Burke
Mail Tribune

A pattern of volatile, confrontational behavior, the purchase of five guns over three days, and reports that Oregon Department of Transportation administrators had left their Roseburg homes in fear prompted Oregon State Police to conclude that a suspended ODOT planner could be a danger to himself or others, newly released police reports say.

Less than half an hour after sending out a teletype on March 7 asking law enforcement officers across Southern Oregon to be on the lookout for David J. Pyles, a 39-year-old planner placed on administrative leave March 4, OSP Sgt. Jeff Proulx sent out a second teletype reporting that police had a reason to take Pyles into protective custody.

In a report released this week, Proulx lists a dozen items that led him to his decision.

“After reviewing all this information I obtained, I amended the ATL (attempt to locate bulletin) to indicate probable cause existed to detain Mr. Pyles on a police officer’s mental hold,” Proulx wrote.

That conclusion ultimately launched a Medford police negotiator and SWAT team, who took Pyles into custody at his Effie Street home early on March 8 for a mental health evaluation and took his weapons.

Pyles was released within hours and his six guns were returned to him March 12, after he asked for them back.

However, concerns of gun-rights and civil-liberty advocates continue to echo across talk radio and blogs. Pyles has said he still hopes to hire an attorney, but declined to comment further. He has released statements and parts of a recording he made when he was placed on paid leave March 4 over what he and ODOT officials describe as an ongoing personnel issue.

Transportation department managers called OSP, the agency that provides security for state offices, to stand by at the office at 100 Antelope Road, White City, while administrators from Roseburg notified Pyles about the leave, say reports by OSP Sgts. Tanya Henderson and Steve Mitchell, the two officers who responded. Pyles’ supervisor explained to them that Pyles had been confrontational in the past so he wanted police present. The Mail Tribune is not publishing the names of the ODOT managers because of their safety concerns.

When the supervisor called Pyles to come into a conference room, he refused, so the officers and administrators went to his work station, the OSP reports say. He again refused to go to a conference room with them, demanding that a union representative be present if he was going to be questioned. Mitchell’s report describes him as “very irrational.”

Police and ODOT representatives told him that this wasn’t an investigation, so he didn’t need a union rep, the reports say. Henderson’s report indicates that Pyles was “very upset and sweating” when he was allowed to call a shop steward, who was out of the office for the day.

Pyles recorded the conversation and took photographs of those present. In portions of the recording he released, he claims he doesn’t trust management and repeatedly calls the proceedings an unfair labor practice. He sounds increasingly agitated as police and managers calmly repeat requests for him to go to a conference room or accept a letter at his desk.

He read aloud the letter, which explained he was being placed on paid leave pending a fitness for duty examination by a psychiatrist chosen by ODOT.

Police reports indicate that he signed the letter and was given time to pack his personal items.

“During the time Pyles was packing, he had mood swings,” Henderson wrote. “He would go from packing his items and being very calm and rational to at times being very vocal and at one point stepping aggressively toward” his manager until Mitchell told him to step back.

Mitchell wrote that Pyles got upset when his manager asked about whether some binders, which Pyles said had personal information in them, had ODOT information in them.

“This conversation upset Mr. Pyles and he became irrational again,” Mitchell’s report says.

Pyles then asked for more time to collect his things, and, when it was granted, sat down with his back to the people waiting for him and put his feet up on his desk, Mitchell wrote. After about a minute, he resumed packing.

He took more pictures as he was escorted out of the building, then loaded his things into his vehicle and left, reports say.

Pyles called 9-1-1 a short time later to say he had been threatened at work. A deputy called Henderson about the complaint, but didn’t make a report on the incident, dispatch records indicate.

On March 5, law enforcement and ODOT officials met at the ODOT offices in White City to discuss concerns about Pyles’ behavior. After hearing about verbal outbursts and slipping hygiene, Jackson County sheriff’s deputy Phil Cicero asked the OSP division that does background checks for gun purchases to notify him if Pyles underwent a background check to buy firearms.

The background check division reported that Pyles bought a Heckler & Koch .45-caliber pistol and a Remington 12-gauge shotgun March 5 at Sportsman’s Warehouse in Medford, a second H&K pistol at Sportsman’s Warehouse on March 6 and a Walther .380-caliber handgun and an AK-47 rifle at Black Bird Shopping Center on March 7.

At 6 p.m. on March 7, OSP, a dozen officers from the sheriff’s department and Medford police met to discuss growing concerns about Pyles and his purchases.

During the final week of February, Pyles had traveled to Roseburg to meet with a manager, Proulx’s report says. When the manager refused to meet with him, Pyles went around the building to bang on the manager’s window.

Proulx wrote that he was told some of the ODOT employees involved in placing Pyles on leave feared retaliation and the department had hired a security company to monitor offices in White City and Roseburg.

Sheriff’s department investigators collected evidence from Pyles’ computer and desk at ODOT offices, and Medford police started surveillance at his Effie Street home.

State police in Roseburg were notified to look for Pyles at motels and the home of a coworker and friend.

A teletype was sent out, at 9:24 p.m. March 7, to law enforcement across southwestern Oregon asking officers to be on the lookout for Pyles and warning of potential officer safety issues. It warned that he might be unstable and had made “concerning statements,” but said he hadn’t made specific threats and police didn’t have a reason to arrest him.

Proulx called three ODOT managers directly involved in putting Pyles on leave to tell them about Pyles’ weapons purchases and help them make a safety plan if they wanted. The managers already knew about the guns and “left their residences that evening and stayed with friends or family because of the fear for their lives they felt,” Proulx wrote.

“Personal interactions with Mr. Pyles” and observations of his “irrational behavior” combined with the knowledge that he had just bought five guns caused them to fear for their safety and even their lives, he wrote.

“All three of these ODOT employees felt the threat to be real,” his report states.

Proulx said upon reviewing the details, his training and experience led him to believe Pyles “was a threat to himself and or others.” He amended the teletype at 9:50 p.m., sending out a second message that police had a reason to hold Pyles.

At about 12:30 a.m. on March 8, Proulx talked again with Medford police, who were managing surveillance of Pyles’ house.

“I confirmed to them that I believed that Mr. Pyles was a threat to himself or others,” Proulx wrote in his report.

Medford police sent out the SWAT team and a negotiator just before 6 a.m. Pyles voluntarily came out of his house just before 7 a.m., was handcuffed, and agreed to point out guns and ammunition in his home so police could collect them, Medford police reports say. He was taken for a mental health evaluation at Rogue Valley Medical Center and released about three hours later after being cleared by a psychiatrist.

Reach reporter Anita Burke at 541-776-4485, or e-mail aburke@mailtribune.com.

First, I don’t think he acted any differently than anyone else would had they been dealing with the DOT. As far as the “slipping hygiene” reason goes they’ve never seen VDOT employees!

Second, he has good taste in guns!

:smiley:

I still didn’t see any reason for the neighborhood to be locked down and SWAT and helicopters and stuff.

These kinds of stories make me think…

First of all, the “mood swings” statement is hilarious. Have these people ever been fired? Or had their sanity questioned? Your mind races at a thousand miles an hour. You’re pissed, then introspective, then pissed, then you want to cry, then you want to bash someones head in, then you get defiant… that’s just normal.

I do have to say this, though… If I had recently lost my job, ESPECIALLY in this economy, I don’t think I would be buying a ton of guns. Does it make the seizures right or legal? No, probably not. But, I UNDERSTAND where the cops were coming from. It’s a total catch 22… They seize the weapons, violate all kinds of rights, and get sued up the ass. They DON’T seize the weapons, and Mr. Pyles goes in and shoots everyone at the ODOT office. Or, nothing happens and nobody does anything. Those are the only three options. The third option is something that almost no LEO can wrap his/her mind around. It just doesn’t work in that kind of world. You almost HAVE to expect the worst.

Does it open a whole can of worms? Yes, it does. It’s the classic slippery slope. Hopefully, Mr. Pyles does sue, does win, and sets a standard.

I still want to know what they would have done if he’d just ignored them, or told them he wasn’t coming out, and had just sat in his house and watched TV. Seems to me that he was “arrested” in every sense of the word if his house was surrounded by a SWAT team. What if he just walked out, unarmed, to walk his dog or check his mail? What would they have done?

I don’t see much of any substance in this article that differs from or adds to the original articles at the time of the incident. He got fired (or placed on leave), was understandably not himself about that, and then went and bought some guns (which is admittedly odd for somebody who presumably just lost his income). No reports of even vague threats of violence or suicide, no history of the same reported.

People like him you leave alone. If he ends up doing something awful, yes, people will say “why didn’t the authorities DO something?” The answer is “because he hadn’t crossed any lines yet.” The police/government are not liable to anyone because they made a judgment and did not take action in a case like this. They can, however, be sued when they take illegally excessive action against somebody. Seems like an easy call to make.

I’m not up to speed on Oregon’s law but Washington for example has an involuntary treatment act in which under specific circumstances an officer or cdmhp can develope probable cause to take you into custody against your will for an involuntary mental health evaluation. For all intents and purposes, you’re under arrest and as such subject to whatever force necessary to be taken into custody.

I don’t like the idea of fellow (government) employees being able to make an accusation, and that leads to someone being detained by SWAT, and hauled off to the looney bin.

Well, I’m an Oregonian and have followed this closely. I’d probably say it’s a matter of presentation. Certainly other articles and organizations have presented it a little differently than the article quoted by the OP.

I’m not cop bashing. Heck I work on cops guns regularly for free as an armorer.

That being said, the guy did not break any laws. He was detained, forced to go through psych eval. He was not given access to an attorney, as he wasn’t arrested.

Being an aggressive asshole, or having moodswings is not a crime.

Let’s try to think where else that could be used against us as citizens. It’s pretty easy: Jeez, all these guys over on M4C and Lightfighter are clearly politically disgruntled, clearly own firearms, and could be a threat. Maybe they we should be able to “hold” them for up to 180 days without consent, medicate them without consent, and confiscate their firearms.

Leaving it too open to interpretation is a little to dangerous to liberty to me. Remember who might be doing the interpretation.

reminding me of that movie with tom cruise about future crimes that have not happened yet but they arrest on that !!!

bizarre stuff seems to be happening more and more these days and that REM song “its the end of the world as we know it” keeps playing in my head !!!

Notice that all of the “evidence” of ‘mood swings’, ‘irrational behavior’ and being ‘confrontational’ all come from biased sources. The bottom line here is that mere accusations from dubious sources led to an arrest & mental health evaluation.

This man’s reputation & future employment prospects are destroyed. Because of his ‘superiors’ opinions. A SWAT team was used to accomplish what a simple phone call could do. A little respect and discretion could have gone a long way here.

I’ve never been to Medford, OR. Don’t know if it’s a big place but I am troubled that every small town police department in America has a hard on to have a SWAT team decked out in the latest 511/Blackhawk catalog.

I grew up in a big city and cops walked the neighborhood wearing shirts with a collar & tie and polished shoes. Nowadays you see a cop and the officer looks like a commando in a ‘tactical’ jumpsuit, combat boots, and battle gloves. I don’t like the growing ‘militarization’ of America.

Here is my take on it.

The guy is a smelly pain in the ass at work with a history of flipping out, and everyone thinks he is a psyco.

He acts the same way while the police are there.

He calls 911 and lies about being threatened.

He brought it all on himself.

Precisely. Slippery slope this is…

And what department do you work for, officer?

Try not to go down this road otherwise the thread will be closed like the last one. Besides, why insult police officers? :smiley:

Just wondering. I’ll repair to friendlier environs now, since my presence seems to guarantee a lock lately.

Yeah, stay on topic. This isn’t even about cops. This is about the criminalization of things in our society, and our immediate knee jerk responses that cause these things. Political correctness, fear, and trampling the constitution by using fear. The cops will work within the framework of the law. The real problem is that the law may have allowed what happened. WE let that happen. And if it turns out it wasn’t legal there’s a whole host of people whose bad judgement should have them paying for this one.

This is a societal issue of which the cops are a small part.

Noops

Paid leave? SEE YA! I’ll try my darndest to get in touch with the psych boss, till then you can catch me fishing out on the lake around the point just on the left by the water. Personally I think this guy missed out on a chance for a week off.

Have any of us seen the affidavit for his involuntary hold? I haven’t, but it takes an act of god to get most SWAT teams mobilized…a simple invol isn’t going to do it. I don’t think it’s fair to cry foul either way…yet.

What if SWAT wasnt used and the dude ducked out the back and wacked his neighbor. What if what if? Then we would all be crying about their lack of response. People assume things about what SWAT team does, when in reality they bring a lot of resource to bring critical situations to favorable resolutions for all. They contained the situation and it was resolved easily, had it spun sideways they were ready.

Presumably we’re all gun owners on this board and we’re bitching about being too safe with resources? There’s nothing wrong with being ready for a fight right? Most of us carry concealed everywhere we go…just in case.

If anything this dude needs to see what “witness” statements were made and go after them in civil court if they were wrong or blown out of proportion.

So what if we the cops did nothing and the guy went postal.

In law enforcement we are held accountable for our actions and our in-actions. I can’t speak for the rest of the police on here but based on what is written, I believe the right choice was made.

The citizen has a built in remedy called civil court.

FWIW Trooper Jeff Proiux is a good man not prone to over reaction. I knew him when he was stationed here in Klamath Falls. He recently lost a very close friend in an IED bombing up in the Portland Oregon area at a bank, where OSP and a PD LT got trashed by some solid fucking citizen, and his father who were anti establishment.

D Williams

Right, what I thought was weird was no police officers or other forum members from Oregon were coming up with ORS citations for how this guy could have been legally detained for a mental evaluation and explaining the authority to seize the weapons in the meantime, etc.

Some posters from Oregon were saying there was no authority to do this, and nobody from Oregon challenged this assertion.

AFAIK He voluntarily went to the evaluation and his guns voluntarily surrendered, given back once he asked for them.