I’m looking at taking my first training class and I need some advice. I’ve got 2 AR carbines 1 flattop with a 4x32 Acog and the other is an A2. I plan on taking both with me, 1 as primary and the other as backup. My question is the ACOG too much optic and should I switch to an Aimpoint/Eotech or use the ACOG?
Thanks for any and all suggestions.
Use whatever optic in the class that you intend on really using with the rifle.
If you intend on using both, a 4x can be a bit much for a carbine class depending on the distances involved, but you should learn how to use it if you intend on using it.
A variable power 1-4x would be would be good otherwise the red dot is a better all-around option.
use the one you are most likely to use in real life. Or; shoot 1 setup on day 1 and try the other on day 2
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using irons for you first training class. However later on you will most likely want to switch over to a red dot reflex optic.
If I was in your shoes I would shoot my first course with the iron sights.
I am basing this off of the assumption that the course will be focused on 0-50 yard shooting. If not, disregard.
This is also assuming that your A2 sighted gun is your HD gun.
The 0-2 aperture is very fast at close-range and acceptably accurate out to 200 yards. Most ACOGs (depending on model and magnification) are difficult to shoot quickly at close range without significant practice, and are sub-optimal in transitional lighting, with tactical white-light, at close range.
YMMV.
My first three classes were with iron sights. This proves what? To whom? What tweaking on other skill sets did I miss “romancing the front sight?”
Have you asked your instructor what he thinks? After all, you are paying him for his expertise.
Do both!
I attended a 4 day course last weekend. I shot the entire course with only iron sites. Training included 7 to 200 yard shots. I still need work at 200 with the large apature. We did shoot steel 24" gongs @ 400 yards. I got lucky and hit my first 3 @ 400. So it’s definitely doable with iron sights.
go with an aimpoint comp or micro series zeroed @ 50 yards.
4x mag is nice to have if you’re shooting at 200 yards, but this can be done with no magnification red dots.
Depends on the instructor and the drills he has planned. I’d definitely start with irons.
Typically Aimpoints will help you get hits better in adverse conditions. (low light or otherwise poor visibility) But since this is your first course, I’d guess that you won’t be too deep into advanced low light action.
Pretty much what everbody has suggested so far is what i had figured. I plan on attending the Vickers Level 1 class in August if that helps any.
The only reason I would purposely (or advise someone else to) use iron sights for a class would be 1) if I knew I was not able to use them properly, and 2) it was a marksmanship-oriented class. Otherwise, I’d do the class the way I planned to use the rifle.
You could always just call/email Larry and ask him his opinion on what you should do.
Then I’ll quote LAV directly.
I don’t care if you have to star in a gay porno pic to pay for it, GET A RED DOT.
FWIW, LAV recommends Aimpoint or S&B and does not recommend Eotech.
Actually I did this for my first class (I had to as my optic mount was defective) and came to realize how inadequate irons can be at close range. I find them horribly slow on the small aperture and inaccurate on the large aperture one.
Learn to use your iron sights if you don’t know how already, but I don’t think much is gained by foregoing optics in your first class.
Learn to use… what you’re really going to use.
With all due respect, I’d argue that you weren’t instructed on irons very well then. (in the cqb realm) <— added
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I agree (for me at least) that the big app sucks. I can’t hit shit with it. It’s amazing how much accuracy can drop off with such a small change. Some folks may be able to make the big app hum, but I sure can’t.
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If you’re consistent with the position of the toe of your stock, you can get consistent snap sight pictures pretty reliably and fast.
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If you’re at contact distances and/or up to 10 yards and you’re still lining up irons sights, you’re nuts dude. I can score lightening fast C.O.M. hits on a target my simply looking OVER the rear app and using the front sight post only, JUST LIKE one would use his red dot. I can peripherally see the sight coming onto target and time the trigger pull appropriately.
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KevinB (respected m4c member) makes the exellent point that although he can get hits just as fast or faster with IRONs, Red dots really shine in adverse conditions such as low light, dust/smoke, and/or when taking incoming fire. (i’m paraphrasing his comments, but they’re the best, unbiased comments I’ve read on the subject)
Is USMC good enough training on iron sights?
Sheesh why do you guys always think in “ALL” or “NOTHING”. Can you put rounds on target? Sure. But the large aperture only works (barely) at CQB distance and it’s still lots slower than a red-dot and not nearly as accurate. The small aperture is useful at distance, but is horribly slow at CQB distances relative to a red-dot. Sorry but that’s the reality. As for the “cons” of a red-dot, I’d submit that the combat value more than compensates for any deficiencies.
Relative to a red-dot, there is no comparison to speed and accuracy with irons. I can’t tell you how many times personal experience has confirmed this.
As for what I chose, I keep a variable low-power optic, at CQB distance I’d probably point-shoot.
Again…learn to shoot what you intend on using.
USMC training is excellent for marksmanship, and I’d never disrespect the Marine Corps… EVER. But I don’t know the specifics of your training in regards to the CQB realm(which I assume we’re talking about) so I can’t comment.
I find them to be about equal. Actually the irons I can hit faster because I can see the post approaching center mass from low ready (or whatever postion the weapon is in) and lead the trigger pull accordingly.
Again… if you’re comparing lining up the sights like you’d do on a precision shot to the red dot, then you’re not getting a fair comparison. The irons would lose every time if you shot CQB that way.
And the irony must be lost on you that you are making a broad generalization about all the members of this site.