I find a fixed front sight with a rear sight comforting. The durability of a forged front sight is respectable. I have always wondered if we are entering an age where current generations of magnified optics, RDS optics, or others may have proven themselves sufficiently in hard military use. Many users here are running optics only carbines with no provision for readily accessible back up sights. When do you reach such a comfort level in your optics that lenses, electronics, and other internal parts will survive long term use?
Personally I have sent 2 reputable scopes in for repair. Granted I don’t work for the military and I was surprised that the 2 scopes quite on me with normal use.
I’ve used a lot of scopes in the last 10 years, in a range of price/quality levels. I’ve had three that failed to function right out of the box - one high end, one mid-high and one middle range. Each one couldn’t be zeroed and went back for a replacement. However, I have not had any optic fail on me after initially working. I know it happens to people, but so far it hasn’t to me.
Oh, except the factory included mount on a supposedly mil quality optic… QRP2 on Aimpoint PRO. It wouldn’t hold tight, and it failed during matches twice. This is a known issue from what I gather. You fix it by ditching the mount and getting something decent from ADM, Larue or Bobro. Mounts are very important. I still have my Aimpoint ML3 that I bought from Grant with an ADM mount. I sold my PROs because once you buy a new mount separately you’re no better off than if you had started out buying an ML3 or H1/H2 with the mount you actually want.
I think the issue that some people fail to appreciate is fogging, rain, snow, and mud. You can have a $3000 awesome scope that never fails, but is unusable because the lenses aren’t clear due to something on them. You can slightly reduce this risk by buying Bushnell Elites with Rainguard (which only helps you for liquid water, not mud), but otherwise, it’s just an issue. IMHO this is why you should have a quick-release mount if your backups are conventional (including a forged FSB), or consider 45-degree offset BUIS. I say this, but I’m just a civilian and competitor, not someone with .mil experience. I’m interested to hear from those with military experience how often mud on lenses caused a problem.
I concur with you that the mount that the pro ships with is less than stellar. Mine loosened up many time. Took off the ratcheting knob and installed a well torqued nut. The witness mark that I scribed on the nut and mount reveal stability thus far.
I’ve never put a “scope” to any sort of durability test. But I have an Aimpoint C3 in a wilcox mount that was knocked 12 moa out of zero from tipping over on tile in my house. I keep little faith in optics on fighting guns. They’re a small fraction of the durability of A2 field sights.
From my limited, non mil/LE experience, I’ve found that high quality optics and mounts are reliable enough to trust and cheap shit always breaks when I need it to work. YMMV, but I doubt it.
12 moa is a significant shift! I have sent 2 leupold vx3 scopes back for repair. One with a fractured front lens and the other with damaged internal adjustments. The 510 wells so far hasn’t broken the Leupold fixed 4x. I wonder how much of my internals have been broken by the recoil!
The ACOGS and Aimpoints, are battle proven by guys on the wall. However, all my guns have BUIS, and always will. For RDS, my favorite is LMT front and back iron sights.
Ive carried optics for years on back country hunts and on duty in the northern Rockies. Nothing short of a hard drop or whack on vehicles or rocks has caused any shift in zero. If I were to smack a fixed iron that hard, I’d check for shift in zero as well. Buy optics and mounts known for robustness and proceed. FWIW, I’ve had great luck with Nightforce and Swarovski Z5/6 scopes, ACOGS and Aimpoints with Nightforce and Talley mounts.
I’ve been moving away from QD mounts due to the added weight and the fact that it’s a feature I never utilize. My current recce setup has a Trijicon 1-8 in a Geissele mount and no BUS. I’m not worried about it.
This is the information that I am seeking. What makes you comfortable with optic only? Is it the particular brand, first hand experience with the model? What garuntee do you have that assures that optic’s reliability and durability? Please elaborate.
Really there is no guarantee that it won’t fail, but that’s true of any optic. It’s even true of a lot of backup iron sights if you drop your gun on them.
When I put the optic on the rifle I used a non-QD Geissele mount and I don’t carry a wrench or nut driver around in my pocket just in case the optic fails. I also didn’t want to mess with offset irons. I have a quality optic in a quality mount all assembled and torqued properly. It could leave me high and dry tomorrow, but I’m really just not too worried about it.
Having said all that I do have BUS on my three other rifles. All Magpul MBUS Pros. One has an Aimpoint ACO which can cowitness. I don’t really like Aimpoints though (astigmatism problems) and may end up replacing it with something else. One has a Vortex Spitfire 1x and this is the only one I currently have in a QD mount (ADM, the factory mount was total junk IMO). The other is a mini-recce in the works and doesn’t have an optic on it yet. It will likely end up with a Nightforce NX8 also in a Geissele mount.
In the end it all comes down to what you are comfortable with. On that particular rifle I’m comfortable running it with only the optic. Later on, if I end up with another rifle, I may steal the set off the mini-recce and leave it optic only.
ETA: I should also point out that I would likely have BUS sights on this gun if it were my only rifle. As it is I have three complete ARs and another in the works. If an optic goes down I have other rifles to use.
This is the camp where I hang my hat or spurs. I have 2 simple rules.
All AR’s have iron sights.
CQ purposed rifles with optics such as EOTech or Aimpoint have fixed front and rear sights (PRI or DD). Scoped rifles can have folding sights. (Troy or KAC) That’s how I was taught and it makes sense to me.
I look at it from an engineering failure modes analysis standpoint.
The more components in a system, the more opportunities there are for failure.
If you want to do what I did, look up some videos of what are in the “guts” of various optic out there. Look at the parts, what they are made out of and where they are in relation to other components.
Then use that information to determine if you feel that some alternative method of sighting is needed or not.
The battery for my Aimpoint on my HD gun keeps dying before I expect it to, so I will be putting a fixed front sight on that gun. Usually I run folding sights but that is starting to concern me. The only time I’d feel comfortable without irons is with a LPVO with an etched reticle. Durability really isn’t my concern so much as batteries.
OK, with a scope, fixed front and KAC irons rear----my optic is crushed when I fall onto a rock. People are shooting at me. How long will it take to wrench that optic off with no tools or quick release mount? What do I do? What does your training say?
A fall great enough to break your optic is more than enough to break some bones.
My training would have me seek cover and assess what the **** is going on. Quick OCOKA and make the call to break contact or not while determing just how ****ed I am.