Optics dilemma...help

Tactical Gear Optics & Mounts
1

I need a little help sorting through the optics delema rolling around in my head. I’m new to AR’s but not new to guns. I recently bought a S&W M&P15PSX primarily because my action pistol buddies talked my into 3-gunning (it wasn’t hard) but also for general range fun. I do not consider it a defensive tool. Not saying I wouldn’t use it in a situation where I needed it and it happened to be handy, but its just not part of my POU for this gun. I actually like shooting irons, but it hasn’t taken many matches to discover what a challange irons division is (running troy industries floding battle sights BTW). Also, some legalities of the new IDPA DMG rules have me wanting to run optics so I can run the shotgun and pistol I want without being an iron’s guy in the optics class. I’ll probably primarily be running IDPA DMG because there isn’t a whole lot going on in my neck of the woods for USPSA 3-gun. I think max distances the ranges hosting matches have is 200yds. So with that in mind, here’s were I’m at:

Originally I was all about the Aimpoints. It pretty much fits my style and preferences except that my fellow competitors who run red dots complain about the dot covering the taget at distance. Especually steel plates at and beyond 100yds. Aimpoints really only come in the single dot sight picture (any usually a fairly big dot)…this turns me off. Also, you need to buy a seperate mount which makes them more expensive.

Then there are Eotech’s. I actually got to try a 512 on my rifle a little bit. They are kind of the inverse of Aimpoints for me. I love the sight picture. I think the 1MOA dot in a circle would be a workable comprimise for close up and long range. I’m not really crazy about the form factor, style, or controls setup.

While we are talking about red dots- I have a dealer who I moderatly trust trying to sell me on Primary Arms red dots. Aimpoint form factor, multiple reticle selector, less than half the price. He has my attension, but I’m instantly suspicious when people say a less expensive item is “just as good.” I’ve been around long enough to know that there is a reason for price differences- it may or may not be value added for my individual application- but there is a difference. So what’s the difference and do I care since my life isn’t dependant upon this optic.

Then with all this fuss about red dots and fixed 1X magnification in 3-gun, I start to like the idea of an ACOG (with the fiber optic reticle). I love the concept, simplicty and the non-dependance upon batteries. Then I saw the price…yeah that’s a lot of money for an optic.

My buddies all say a 1-4x scope is the only way to fly in 3-gun. It makes the most logical sense, but I’m not into the idea. In my expirence with other guns, I’m generally not a fan of scopes especially if any element of speed is involved. I also don’t like the looks of scopes mounted on AR’s (silly, but that’s how I roll).

Price wise, I morally have a hard time shelling out $500+ on an optic, but since Aimpoint and Eotech are kind of the benchmark standards of the AR optics scheme…I could part with that amount of money if something like a Primary Arms sight is really inferior. ACOG’s are cool, but $1000 for an optic…I don’t know if I could do that, I’d have to be really convinced that they were the bee’s knees.

So now that I’ve touched on pretty much every carbine optic under the sun…can somebody please give me a suggestion or help me sort out my thoughts…:confused:

2

You can get the Comp M3 with a 2MOA dot.

The T1 has a 3.7MOA dot.

Ive used EOTechs a bit, and I personally think the center dot is bigger than 1MOA compared to how much target it actually covers at 100 yards. 1MOA would basically be 1", and the dot has always seemed bigger to me than that. More like 2-3MOA. Maybe its just my eyes but 1" is not that big at 100 yards.

Some people buy the cheaper optics, and they work for them. Other people have issues with things like keeping zero, water proofing, the clicks may not be as advertised, ect. Bottom line is you pay for what you get.

EOTech’s have improved their quality, and I don’t really see the issues they used to have popping up anymore. If that reticle style works for you better than a single dot then Id go with that. EOTech’s don’t have the battery life of Aimpoints. Ive had Aimpoints on for over a year straight without a battery change. EOTechs will go through them much faster. Id get one of the models that has the battery 90 degrees not inline. That is where most of the issues have stemmed from with the inline models as under recoil the springs can lose contact with the battery, and it shuts the optic off. I think they have done something to correct that but its your optic…:cool:

3

I prefer the Aimpoint M4S model. Get it with the 2moa dot. I like the good record of overall reliability, simple dot and switch. Also this model comes with a mount.

4

Ive used EOTechs a bit, and I personally think the center dot is bigger than 1MOA compared to how much target it actually covers at 100 yards. 1MOA would basically be 1", and the dot has always seemed bigger to me than that. More like 2-3MOA. Maybe its just my eyes but 1" is not that big at 100 yards.

Eotech actually says the dot is 1/3 MOA, but most people actually see it as 1 MOA, and it is dependant on your visual acuity. So says Eotech…

I sold my EXPS because the reticle never quite looked right to me. Always slightly off. Through a magnifier they (Eotech reticles) always looked perfect…never quite what I wanted without it.

I’ve always found the controls on the Aimpoints easier to use too. The manual switch is easier to use with gloves on or when your fingers are cold. I also never quite liked the T1, I find the adjustment dial is hard(er) to use and I like the posistion of switch on the M2/M3s much better.

5

Really? Which model says 1/3rd MOA?

http://www.eotech-inc.com/products.php?id=1

The controls are personal preference. The T1 works fine by me but Im not a big fan the EOTech buttons esp with gloves on.

6

Read the FAQ on their website.

I’m sure someone as smart as you can find it yourself.

Here it is for everyone else…

What size is the center dot and circle?
The circle is 65 MOA across and the center dot actually is less than 1/3rd of an MOA. Most people cannot resolve the dot smaller than 1 MOA which is why we advertise it as such.

7

There is a sticky thread on M4C about 1-4X variables and you may get some good information there.

I have two Eotechs (512 and EXPS2-0) and they work fine for me. I also have the original Aimpoint RDS and a T1.

I switch back and forth, but I like the reticle and FOV in the Eotechs better (for plinking and 100 yard and closer shooting). The threads of Eotech vs. Aimpoint are a plenty.

For 3 Gun I have a Meopta K-dot and it works well for me and it was a great value. The Trijicon TR24 is also a very nice 1-4X but a little more expensive than the K Dot. I’m waiting until some more 1-6x and 1-8x scopes have been on the market for a while before I get my next scope. There are also some other less expensive 1-4X on the market, but the illuminated reticle will not likely be visible in bright light.

I’ve heard very good things about the newest generation Primary Arms red dot (posted in a thread here somewhere) and it sounds like a great value if you are looking to save $$

8

If you end up going with cheaper optics look into Vortex. If you want the best Aimpoint imo

9

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That’s a pretty goofy statement. If this part is true “Most people cannot resolve the dot smaller than 1 MOA…”, then, how is EOTech’s “advertising a 1/3 moa as a 1 moa” going to help me (or most) people resolve it better?? That’s some powerful advertisng!!

Wish EOTech would advertise that I don’t have an astigmatism so I wouldn’t see with the one I have…

.

10

Yeah, the Eotech reticles never looked that good to me. It actually looks larger…but, as I said before, through a magnifier the Eotech reticles look really nice. So much so, I wonder if that is how people with 20/20 vision see them all the time.

11

If you are stuck with a 4 moa RDS and you need something smaller you can turn down the intensity of the dot until its almost completely see though.

I saw a guy confirm this by putting his T1 and a M3 2 MOA on a rifle and he dialled down the brightness on the T1 until it matched the 2 MOA dot perfectly.

12

No, it’s not goofy, it’s actually very technically accurate, just dumbed down in a big way (they know most shooters don’t pay attention to 7th grade science). Goofy or no, their advertising in no way impacts the ability of the shooter to see the dot or not.

That’s all you and your opthamologist, right there.

13

I agree with this, just turn it down, I have a T1 and I turn it way down if trying for tighter groups at a distance

14

I’m extremely near-sighted, and the EOTech reticles look really nice to me. Lately though I’ve been using Aimpoint H-1s for builds due to their size and weight–and the dot being a bit bigger is nearly a non-issue for me for the guns they are going on.

I have a Burris XTR 1-4x on my AR I set up for longer range shooting. It’s bigger, heavier, has some parallax at 1x of course, and the battery life is crap compared to an Aimpoint or even an EOTech. That said, for 200+ yard shooting from a bench, I’ll take the Burris XTR every time over an Aimpoint.

15

My eyes aren’t really that bad. I’m under 3 diopters correction for each eye and only about 1/2 to 3/4 diopter for astigmatism.

Maybe that’s changed slightly, but without glasses an Eotech is a huge red blob and an Aimpoint is a smaller red blob.

What I like about the 1-4x scopes is that I can dial the diopter ring to the negative, and have near the same vision through the scope as wearing glasses contacts.

My TA31F was close. The reticle appeared better than the RDS, but my eyes would strain between the reticle and the target. If I was using it for a long time headaches weren’t far off.

Magnifiers never quite did it. I tried an Eotech magnifier with an EXPS. The field of view was pretty small through the G23.FTS. I plan on revisiting the magnifier route, but with Aimpoint stuff. Still doesn’t solve the diopter ring though. If Aimpoint made a magnifier with some type of correction I would be in heaven.

This is where the usefulness of the 1-4s really shine for me.

This is why I also runs irons when using my carbine in a HD role. Combined with a white light they are always in focus and black, regardless of if I’m wearing my glasses or not. The longest distance in my house is a hallway that’s maybe 25’. Indexing a front sight will get you quick hits at that range.

My advice to anyone would be to take a hard look at the 1-4s and use quality QD mounts.