Opinion on right to left lateral movement...

Training Training and Tactics
1

…for right handed shooters.

Most instructors would say to place the right foot in front of the left when moving right to left laterally (for right handed shooters). An example of this movement would be the way Mr. Lamb does it at 20 seconds in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q55MHk8Q-2E&feature=relmfu

Now, here’s a clip of me doing similar movement, kicking some empty bottles around and trying to keep them moving. Keep in mind I have 600 rounds of 7.62 link in my pack, am wearing plates, and have 3 quarts of water on me as well. It’s not so easy to be light on your feet with that load. Train like you fight. Anyway, I’ve caught a small amount of flack from certain instructors for doing it this way, but I see nothing wrong with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WybmrnAvmYg

How do you personally prefer to do it?

2

It is a lot easier to trip/collide when moving backward, especially if you are highly threat-focused as usually happens when engaged at compressed distances than it is to move toes forward.

It’s hard to convince someone that they are doing something wrong if it is working for them, but I believe you are introducing a higher probability of failure with that method under real-world application.

That being said, there is always the possibility of having to retreat while firing, but that’s more of a “gotta do it” than “choose to do it”.
Hitting to the strong side when moving toward the support side is difficult, and requires dedicated training/practice to become and maintain proficiency. If a shoulder transition is not possible, I prefer to just bend more at the knees and cant the upper body toward the support side.

A fouled threshold is something to be avoided at all costs, and unexpectedly finding yourself tits-up in a close range gun-fight isn’t much better.

ETA- It also makes it much more difficult to transition from the initial threat to a threat in the direction of travel if one pops up.

3

As you said, it may perhaps be a matter of me being stubborn, but I do disagree with heel led movement being more prone to tripping.

On rocky or uneven terrain, I think there’s a greater chance of digging your toe into the ground, getting it wedged, and falling flat on your face than there is with a heel led movement. With the way I’m moving, I believe I’m more likely to stay vertical if my foot comes into contact with an obstacle because I’ll feel it underneath my foot rather than “stub my toe” on it.

I also feel that body position / geometry is more on my side when shooting at extreme right and left angles.

But, your point is taken and I appreciate the response. I’m going to spend more time on this, trying it both ways, to see what ends up working out best.

I have a feeling that I’ll stick with the current method because it feels more natural to me. But as you know, appropriate actions can sometimes be counterintuitive.

4

Perhaps not the group desired to observe, but one only has to spend enough time in the shooting sports to see that walking backwards is where the falls happen. Trying to do so expeditiously only makes things worse. I can’t imagine carrying all that stuff helps.

5

If you trip wile moving forward you can easily catch yourself with your knee. Do it moving backward and the first thing that’s going to hit is your ass or your hands.

I’ve fought, trained, and worked inside enclosures enough to trip on stuff every now and then, same in the rocks, woods, and jungles.

Like I said, I don’t expect you to change what you believe to be good based on a disagreement with a random dude on the 'net, but it is much easier to fall when encountering the unexpected when moving backward than when moving forward, and that probability increases when visual focus is impeded and pulled away from the movement path.

I’m not trying to haunt this thread, and I don’t want you to think that I have some hard-on to prove you wrong, so I’m going to just leave it alone for a while to let others weigh in.

6

IMO, Kyle Lamb’s footwork starting at 20 seconds in his video is just asking for a rolled ankle or a fall when loaded with gear. I’m not completely discounting common convention, which is to do it like he does, but I still don’t believe it’s better for me.

Hate to sound like that guy who will stick to his guns despite evidence to the contrary…but at some level, especially in regard to something as basic as individual movement from one point to another, you’ve got to do what feels right.

Forcing an unnatural movement, which crossing my right leg in front of the left absolutely is for me, just because “the book” says it’s more stable, just doesn’t seem right.

I’m by no means a beginner or amateur when it comes to this, but there’s obviously always something that can be learned or done better. This may be one of those things. Continued training focus on this movement will answer that question for me. Thanks for the reply.

7

I’m with f2s, extra knee bend and rotate your torso. I also agree that moving backwards is, as f2s put it, a “gotta do it” kind of thing. Avoid it if possible.

Not to mention, most of the time you will be better off running to your next cover rather than shooting and moving at a pace at which you can effectively shoot laterally. Being required to shoot on the move is rare outside of cqb, having to shoot laterally is even more rare. This is my “opinion,” for the rob_s’s of the world who need neat proofs for everything. I had a class with MSG Howe a while ago and he mentioned that he never “serviced” a bad guy on the move. I guess I’m just saying, train hard but I don’t think you need to obsess over it.

My opinion, but I would say:

  1. Run to your next cover if possible, especially if you have buddies who are actively supressing fire. And frankly, even if you don’t in my opinion.

  2. A f2s said, switch shoulders and fire laterally.

  3. if you can’t switch shoulders, use the extra knee bend and rotate your upper body. If you reach a point that you can no longer address the threat by rotating your torso and the threat still needs some loving, again my opinion, quickly eye forward terrain and spin backwards and continue shooting as you moving backwards until your threat has been dealt with. Or, again, screw the fancy shooting and run to your next cover.

Practice it, practice it some more, but don’t get hung up on it. And nothing wrong with training to shoot while moving backwards because that may well be your first instinct when you come under fire, especially in a defensive role where you’re on your own.

Just my $.02.

8

I’m a huge fan of the, ‘shuffle’ method when it comes to lateral movement. However, it isn’t always the fastest way to move–if you need to cover distance quickly, it can certainly be awkward if not practiced frequently.

Moving right to left, even on the strong shoulder, if one has to cross legs, I recommend the, ‘in front’ method over behind for reasons already given in this thread. Also, I most always advocate never putting your feet behind your LOS whenever possible.

Like others have said, running backwards is a situation to be avoided whenever possible for reasons which remain obvious.

9

Odd double post.

10

The thing we always have to ask ourselves is, does the alternate method “feel wrong” because it is wrong, or simply because we haven’t done it enough?

Something else I’ll add to the discussion, I’ve actually run some experiments with the shooters that come out to our drills nights. We average 15-30 shooters of varied experience levels. Almost across the board they do better, move faster, are more stable, and get better hits if they shoot from the leading shoulder in whatever direction they are headed. Left shoulder when moving right-left.

11

Q: What was the number one training related AAR comment after the latest Afghan deployment?

A: More training shooting on the move.

I wholeheartedly agree and that was my comment as well. This is the impetus for focusing so much training time on it. The training requirement is not a theoretical one, nor based off of someone else’s experience.

Your comments about bounding overwatch being preferred over shooting on the move are valid but not always possible.

The drill is geared toward rapidly closing with and engaging a threat at short range where taking cover and/or being supported by a support by fire element is not possible. The purpose of the lateral movement is to make yourself harder to engage while closing that distance.

Now, as to the actual mechanics of the task rather than the tactical validity of it…your point is taken. I’ll continue to work on it and see what happens.

12

What is the real-world scenario that spawned this? an alleyway or something similar?

Outside my lane, I’m just curious.

Will there be FOF ways to test the theory once you arrive at the “best” way to perform the dance?
(no derogatory implication meant by the word “dance”)

13

I’ll send you a PM on this.

14

I’m very interested in this topic. Those of you looking at it from a military perspective, do you see much practical application in a LE or civilian defense scenario? I do a lot of shooting on the move in competition. It’s always heel to toe when moving forward and toe to heel when moving back while actively engaging targets. Lateral movement is rarely, if ever on a 90 degree aspect from the target.

When people ask how practical it is, I tell them that unless they’re trying to create time & distance from a very close threat, it isn’t. You’re much better off sprinting to cover and unless there are friendlies in the area, to lay down suppressive fire while doing it. If that isn’t an option, take a step or two off centerline while prepping to take the shot and then deliver rounds accurately and aggressively.

I can see where this type of shooting while moving might have practical applications in a military setting, but how important is it from a non-military perspective?

15

I mentioned MSG Howe’s comment only because he is a known quantity. I’m just another guy on the internet. I can draw from my background but I have chosen to not fill out my profile while I am in the LE hiring process so I try to stay within the general knowledge realm in the forum; I may have strayed from that a bit. I am curious about the circumstances that you found yourself in that committed you to dedicate so much effort on shooting while moving laterally specifically. I am not trying to be condescending at all and I hope I don’t come across that way. Genuinely curious, I like to learn from other’s experiences. Stay safe brother.

16

Oh yeah, absolutely man. I’ve got enormous respect for MSG Howe. Also didn’t mean to come across as contrary to that. Appreciate your input and didn’t take it as condescending at all. Thanks.

17

And I did note in my post that shooting on the move is more applicable in CQB, perhaps I should have said at CQB distances. There was no indication in your original post that this was the case but I did refer to it in my post.

Like I said, I am genuinely curious about the circumstances you found yourself in, sounds pretty crappy.

18

Kyle Lamb gives his answer to the question from 1:33 to 1:48 in the video. It follows Failure2Stop’s reasoning about losing your balance, stumbling and catching yourself.

I also like Rob’s answer: “The thing we always have to ask ourselves is, does the alternate method “feel wrong” because it is wrong, or simply because we haven’t done it enough?”

The other one I catch myself on from time to time: The “that is the way I have always done it” mindset.

19

Interesting discussion. I prefer shooting off my support side if possible as it works much better for me all the way around if I need to move and shoot to my right side. I’ve never found a comfortable way to shoot right with a long gun from my strong side shoulder.

At my level of capability shooting and then moving is probably my best option if given a choice. I train to shoot and move as well, but I know what my limits are and prefer not to challenge them on the two way range unless necessary.

-Jenrick

20

While I am not as loaded down quite as heavily as you often find yourself, I am packing around an extra 50lbs or so when working.

Anyone that is familiar with my posts will probably understand that I am a huge proponent of being well versed in SOTM. I attempt to try as many variables as I can and I do train a few different methods regularly. Like anything else, I will have my own preferences on what method to use for different situations and will have favorite or lesser favored methods situation dependent but I like to have the options. I have personally been using a movement technique for years that is nearly identical to the movement theory and technique that you see performed in the VTAC video.

When I am moving to my support side and do not have the ability, or afforded the opportunity to switch the rifle to a support side hold, I will reverse my movement from a forward roll to a backwards roll mid movement. I will only opt for this when I cannot drop my hips by bending my knees which allows me to rotate (tank turret) my upper body with enough rotation to be able to effectively engage my target without getting crossed up. One thing I really wish to avoid is having both feet not facing the direction of travel (side stepping). Side stepping may have a place, but for a sustained, fluid movement it does not provide for a stable shooting platform as it creates too much bounce. Having at least one foot inline with the direction of travel helps mitigate bounce and practice can all but eliminate it.

Having said that and just speaking about the angle at which you are traveling on your oblique movement in your video, I would use and advocate keeping a forward movement and dropping my hips with more bend at the knees and tank turreting to engage the target. Again I acknowledge that the added weight places a lot more pressure on the body, joints and muscles and prolonged use of a deeper knee bend may not make the turreting move as ideal over sustained movement, so yes there are factors involved. However, “ideally” I would not prefer to use your choice in movement method in that instance as seen in your video. I do understand that you are running a drill and training your movement but IMO you are far less fluid. Now if you were running a true parallel to the target and you are unable to get enough rotation to engage then I would do a complete turn around and move backwards in one fluid movement. I do this technique without breaking any contact on target and continue my normal rate of fire throughout the movement. This is definitely a more advanced move and attempting it weighted down without a high level of proficiency is asking for issues. Again we need to understand the situation in which it is applied and the overall need or practicality of the movement. The “have to do it” type of option. Yes it does get used sparingly but if I find myself in a situation where I have to do it, then I want to be able to do it at a high level of proficiency.

I will very often use a movement that generally contradicts the basic “heel to toe, both feet pointed in the direction of travel” concept where I keep my strong side foot headed in the direction I want to travel, but will use my support side foot pointed at the target for specific reasons. I will refrain from expounding further on this however but I will say that this foot movement might be more advanced than what would be taught at square one for a newer shooter and of course shooter experience and skill is always a variable. I will add that I “generally” prefer to cross my feet in the front as opposed to the rear as it is more stable, but in your video with your direction of travel crossing in the front may be more strenuous but I am still more stable and more accurate. Never say never, because I will use a rear crossing movement situation dependent and it becomes a pick and chose where I have weighed the pluses an minuses to the movement and what I need to accomplish.

I might suggest other methods for you to use but what works for some may not work for others. I will attempt to teach what I feel is a better method, but if it doesn’t work for someone, due to whatever limiting factor (disability, inability, weight of gear, etc, etc, etc,) then I will attempt to offer alternatives or give suggestions in how I feel might improve upon the method that is already in place. However I truly cannot do an assessment of what is a better method for you without working with you personally. I do like that you are thinking and assessing what you are already performing.