Many videos on tactical movement, I have noticed the support ‘thumb’ positioned over the top of the hand-guards. What is the advantage or logic?
For sure that was after my tour of duty.
Start the video and scroll to: 2:08 of the video.
Placing the bore in the middle of your hand provides maximum recoil control. Also allows you to transition from target to target faster by not having a heavy mass above your hands like you do when you broom handle grip a forward grip.
Same thing applies to the pistol. You want to get your weapon hand as high on the back strap as possible. As close to the bore as you can for maximum recoil control.
In my opinion, the major advantage of the thumb over grip is that this positioning shifts your support elbow outwards. This creates a lever pulling into your strong hand shoulder as opposed to your centerline with a traditional underhand support grip. Why is this important? Because you can now pull the rifle in with your support hand rather than just supporting it. This allows better recoil control by leaps and bounds.
Note: pulling in with the support hand in the traditional tends to shift the gun to the support side on recoil as you are pulling the gun towards your centerline (away from your strong shoulder).
Also, the thumb (over top) itself can aid in recoil reduction. It’s tough to describe but with the right consistent pressure, it can be of benefit.
As for more control of the weapon, the further out your hand is, the more control you will have, especially when transitioning. How far out you place your hand depends on the mission, kit, and personal comfort.
The thumb is major assist in keeping the barrel down during recoil. This makes the rifle go straight back into the shoulder, which in addition to the previous posts, speeds up follow on shots. It is a god-send during rapid fire.
This is why many of the guys who use this technique dont fret as much about this weeks hottest muzzle device.
Just remember for Military end users, you will have to contend with your weapon mounted flashlight and laser when attempting to perform this type of technique.
This technique was developed by competition shooters long ago and has been adapted to military combat shooting. If you have standard 7" M4 issued rail systems (KAC) you will have very little room on the top rail to mount your laser (PEQ2/15).
I use both a PEQ2 and a 15 on different guns and mount them close to the FSB to avoid shadowing. This leaves little to no room for wrapping the thumb over the 12 o’clock rail. Even if you did have room, you will be interfering with the laser during your night activities. You may be able to mount the laser on the right or left side rail and have the flashlight on the other. When shooting as a right hander, I leave the left side rail free for hand placement and keep the flashlight on the right side rail and laser on top. i don’t care about forward pistol grips on carbines! They are irrelevant to technique.
I use a pistol grip technique when training with these types of ancillary items attached to the weapon. That is, how I grip my pistol with my support hand is how I grip the front of the carbine. The thumb indexes the space between the 12 and 9 o’clock rail (as your looking through your sight).
Keeping the elbow high so that the forearm is parallel with the axis of the bore will aid in recoil management as the line of pull will be straight into the should pocket.
Just food for thought for the Military guys!
For those not running anything on the top of the rail near the end, the angled base of a standard fixed sight can be used to “push” forward and down. Although I can’t quite make full use if it as I use a Magpul Angled Fore Grip.
Thanks for the reply, Jason.
For those of us not planning on ever running a laser system, do you still recommend the thumb forward in the rail space technique or is there any appreciable advantage to running with the thumb farther over the bore when possible?
You will be a hurting unit if you push serious lead with that technique.
Generally I roll my thumb around the top rail. Sometimes depending how the gun is configured I can’t. On two of my ARs my KAC SR15 and my BCM 16" middy lightweight I have Surefire XT07 pressure switches for my Surefire Scout lights.
Jason, very good point. I run PEQ-15 on top and Light on the right side. I found that, for me, if I run the Peq 2 slots back, I can fit my thumb in between it and the left rail, getting the grip you describe. I dont run a tape switch and use the button to fire the laser. For the light I use the technique from VTAC. I have been debating on removing the foregrip, but with a 7 inch rail, you only have so many options.
As mentioned more control for recoil control and target transitions. I am running with and without and AFG type set up. Click photos to see video.
Without AFG - VTAC Extreme rail
With AFG - Troy Extreme rail
Carbine Length with AFG - Full Auto 60 rounds
I run a tape switch for the laser and another for the flashlight. I active the laser with my support thumb and the flashlight with my support fingers. I use a V-Series SF flashlight to provide greater SA and FOV for CQB and the PEQ-2/15 for target acquisition.
With this system of tape switches I do not need to change my grip from day to night application.
I find that with our method of recoil management I do not need to wrap my thumb over the top of the receiver to achieve rapid accurate hits on target.
The real key is to have your support elbow and forearm parallel to the axis of the bore. This will allow the shooter to pull with the support hand and have the pull in line with the shooters line of sight. Having your support elbow on an obtuse angle and not straight allows the shooter to project the weapon forward in order to strike, (make sure you have slack in the sling!) or remove the support arm and strike with the elbow or forearm during an extreme close quarters fighting/shooting encounter.
This technique no only allows the shooter to shoot fast and accurately, but also to push and pull the weapon fast between targets (think multiple targets within a CQB environment). Having the support hand parallel to the axis of the bore also minimizes any fulcrum effect that the weapon produces during firing.
For LE application, you are more likely to go hands on with a perp than shoot him!
For Mil application, prosecuting targets in the MEAO, you may have to deal with multiple threat targets and aggressive non-combatants that may require a kinetic response followed by a non-kinteic one! Having your weapons handling skills complement your Close Quarters Fighting (CQF) techniques is absolutely essential!
Just trying to visualize further that the support elbow and forearm would be on the same 180 degree horizontal plane say unlike when you are shooting kneeling supported where the elbow is one forearm length below the horizontal plane of the bore.
Sir,
You have provided a lot of good information, thank you.
I think I understand what you are describing regarding grip but I want to make sure. Shooter cants his support wrist (as he would with pistol) and places it on the rail on the 9 o’clock side with thumb around 9-12 and fingers around 3-6. Rather than repositioning the support thumb over the rail, the shooter leaves it in the it’s natural position (at 9-12 o’clock). Is my understanding correct?
Also, with laser and light, I understand you have switches at 9-12 and 3-6 (so top-left and bottom-right viewing down the sights). I’m trying this and can’t find a good way to grip when I transition shoulders. I don’t mind gripping differently as I can still develop it as a consistent support side shooting habit. Would you be able to explain how you alter your grip when transitioning to your support shoulder?
I understand that somethings are difficult to explain in words and if that is the case, I have a class with you in March so I can ask then.
Thank you for your time.
That seems to be the most intuitive. Using the same hand positioning, for both pistol and rifle. One less thing, to consciously think about. That, and in close quarters, it helps you point shoot, to an extent. Since you are ‘pointing’ your thumb at the target.
I haven’t done much competition shooting. I’ve been trained for MOUT/CQB, and was always taught, not to “chicken-wing,” my elbows out. But, to keep them down, and tucked in to my sides. Seems like the thumb over the top, may be fantastic for recoil control, but would cause as many problems as it solves.
Not a competition shooter either. My grip is the same as what Jason described except that the thumb shifts over top of the rail to assist with recoil control. My understanding of what he is saying is that if you have limited real estate with a laser and light, to keep the thumb where it naturally sits with this grip between 9 and 12 o’clock so you can access both tape switches without shifting the grip. Chicken winging usually refers to strong arm elbow at 90 degrees and yes, it is a bad idea. What I described as my grip is pretty much the same as the consensus here. And I was originally taught the traditional support hand under (6 o’clock) grip with elbow down. The modern grip suits me better.
With the proper length rail and/or stock length your elbow does not stick out at all. There may be a slight bend from pulling the gun into your chest but it doesn’t stick out like your weapon elbow does when you don’t keep it down.
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The biggest reason that I bring my support thumb “over the top” is that it lets me get further out on the rail with my support hand, especially since I am now shooting a carbine length gas system with a fixed FSB.
That photo is a little old now and I have slightly modified certain techniques to better complement our combatives program.
This is a more recent photo that represents the technique a little better.
