On learning proper marksmanship

General Firearms Precision Rifle - Bolt Gun
1

I’ve mentioned on this wonderful board that I’m a token n00b. I’ve loved guns all my life, but the truth is that I have more “book knowledge” than I do experience given my age and amount of money. That is to say, “I’m just starting out.” (Which is the foremost reason I joined this forum).

Anyway, I bought this rifle with the intention of learning some real marksmanship. The closest thing to training/instruction was the rifle merit badge class I took when I was a young boy scout; I was 11 yrs old I think.

Here’s the part where I need some guidance:

Don’t get me wrong, I know the fundamentals like sight picture, breath control, trigger control, and follow through–but I still don’t feel 100% confident about what I’m doing. I feel like when I go shoot, that I am not really being the most productive and getting the most out of my practice. I feel like I just sit there and do the same old boring routine. As you can see from the pictures (in my link above), my best target has a bunch of holes from just sitting there shooting at it; I couldn’t even tell you how many rounds I put into it. All of my targets are like that, just mindless.

I was wondering if there is any advice from the knowledgeable people on this board? Is there some kind of training and dry fire regimen I could adopt? (I’ve heard of how good dry fire practice is, and it’s OK to do in the CZ). I just want to make sure that I can actually become a proficient marksman, and I don’t feel like what I do on a regular basis actually does anything as far as improvement goes.

I’ve been contemplating on buying a Harris bipod (I heard they can hook up to the slot where the sling swivel goes). And that these bipods are of good quality. I think that I would even buy some kind of optic for the rifle later on. Right now, all my shooting is done with iron sights (and I chose that model of CZ because of the sights).

If there is any knowledge/info/suggestions/advice you can send my way, I would really appreciate it. Thank you for this great resource!

PS—I heard that there are targets, that simulate long distance man sized targets for use at 25yds. I think they’re called the AQTs or something like that; I’m not exactly sure. Is this kind of target helpful for practice? And does anyone know where I can download and print them?

ETA: I forgot to mention that I am not 100% sure that I do the prone position right–I was wondering if I could get any guidance on that too. I basically just lie flat on my stomach, but I’ve this feeling that there is more to that. Also, is it normal for the rifle to be about 13" inches off the ground when in this position? There have been times where I kicked my own ass shooting my Mosin prone due to its recoil, and I would assume that happened because of bad form.

2

Asking questions is the right direction! Good job.

I’ll let others address the finer points, but here’s a quick tip.

The targets you posted basically show a lot of holes all over the place. Try replacing your target more often so that you can tell where your rounds are going after each shot. The way it appears now, you wouldn’t be able to tell where the shot went, so you can’t assess weather or not that little twitch you may have felt whilst pulling the trigger on the last shot really affected anything. Being able to correlate each shot to what you just did is very important to fixing what may be causing that dispersion. If cost is an issue, simply shoot white paper with a dot drawn on it with a magic marker. It’s cheaper and you can shoot more “quality/learnable” shots. Those kind of shots are worth their weight in ammo compared to simply putting lots of lead down range.

Take into consideration each shot, focus on the basics and try to recall what happened after you break the shot and see how it affected the bullet down range. You’ll start to see correlations between body position, trigger control, did you blink, did you flinch, did the wind gust, were you sloppy on your sight picture, etc.

Hope that helps.

3

You should consider a good shooting coach

4

You can only glean so much knowledge from a book and the internet about how to shoot. I would try to get into a small bore league. You will learn more info in one session than you will get from this thread. From my experience if you can find a small bore league or similar event and you let them know you are a “new guy” someone will take you under their wing.

Good initiative on starting out with a 22LR and wanting to learn the fundamentals.

5

Thanks for the replies so far.

While it would be awesome to have a mentor/shooting coach, there is not much I can do in that regard for the time being. I also have to make do with the less than ideal range I shoot at. Unfortunately, many times I’ve felt rushed shooting there as one has to pay a timely rate. The time in between shooting sessions is short; Every 15 mins, you have to stop what you are doing so everyone can go downrange. I can’t complain too much about this basic policy, but it makes me feel rushed–especially since you pay per 15mins of shooting time. This is the kind of range made for the person who only shoots two boxes of ____________ (insert your commercial caliber of choice for your typical deer rifle) per year. By that I mean that 99.9% of the people who shoot there shoot off a bench. There’s this one guy who I always see there, and he’s always shooting prone, offhand, or kneeling. The dude wears a shooting jacket even. He and I are like the 0.01% that don’t shoot on benches.

Ideally, I just want to shoot somewhere where it doesn’t cost too much, and I can take all the time in the world. I do realize that I really have to make do with what I have which is another reason I want to get the most out of my shooting sessions (considering that I only go once or twice per month, which is reasonable given my budget).

Zhurdan, thanks for your tip. I will definitely keep it in mind next time I go. Is ten shots good enough to put on each target?

6

That guy shooting from various positions might be someone you want to get to know. Sounds like a National Match shooter and National Match shooters practice the fundamentals.

Where in the PRK are you?

7

I would first determine which kind of ammunition the rifle shoots best. To do this you must try a few different kinds off of sandbags at 50 yards and see what kind of five round groups it gives. When you have determined its preference, then start shooting silhouette miniatures. This will hone your shooting, and you really don’t have to shoot them at the official silhouette distances…but it will give you good practice. Of course it helps to have an elevation turret to dial in the ranges.

The silhouettes I use are available from www.raystargets.netfirms.com and are shot from the offhand position. The kids and I shoot these at 100 yards from prone with a bipod equipped Anschutz. You can make stands to get them up off the ground, or like me, I just nailed a plank on top of a piece of 2x4 on each end for a slightly raised platform. The main thing is to have some fun.

8

See if you can attend an Appleseed or CMP match. Lots of people there who will be glad to talk shooting technique with you.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

9

I’ve seen the guy enough times there that I know his first name. And now that I think about it, you’re right he probably does shoot in that discipline given that his 20" AR and M-1 Garand are set up that way. I also see this gentleman shooting a Remington 513 often. As of now, we usually shoot the shit about different milsurps and such, but maybe next time I see him I’ll ask him about some technique stuff.

I’m in Monterey, home of DLI-FLC and the Naval Postgraduate School; the time before last I went to the range, I was acutally shooting besides the NPS shooting team. They had match HRA M-14s and ARs and such. They were also shooting off the bench and with shooting jackets. I did not talk to them at all as they seem to be pretty busy with their stuff. But I swear, everyone else shoots of the bench.

Even though I am not a pro yet, I can’t stand this because I realize that bench groups don’t mean jack shit in real life so I avoid the bench like the plague. I don’t have a fancy shooting mat, so I just use a basic sleeping pad meant for camping. I just had it lying around doing nothing, so now it’s my shooting mat. It’s not the best but it’s good enough. Once, I even shot prone right over the concrete floor when I left the pad at home, no biggie.

I am very well aware about Appleseeds and I would be really excited to attend one. Problem is that I don’t own independent transportation and the nearest events are held either 3-4hrs away on either side. As soon as I have the chance to go I will jump on it, especially since it’s still “free” for me to attend.

I’m just a little concerned about my bolt action having to keep with in the rapid fire part. I’ve only one 5round mag and shoot left handed. :frowning:

I’m thinking maybe of getting another 5 rounder to go along with the one I have. I just hate how they cost so much compared to USGI 5.56 mags. Damn.

From my limited experience, it seems like CCI Blazer bulk is OK out of my gun. I shoot mostly bulk stuff because if its cost, but I know it isn’t the best. I do have 475ish rounds of RWS R-50 match ammo, but I don’t want to “waste” that yet given my skills.

I’m also thinking about getting a Harris bipod for my rifle because I can’t always count on good sandbags at the range and I don’t have any of my own. Is getting a bipod a good idea?

10

I’ll second the Appleseed shoot. I attended one a couple years ago and it was a great time and very helpful. The first day I was shooting my CZ 452 and was able to shoot just under 200 with it while using only one five round mag. It will be a pain in the ass to do it that way but if you shoot with a good cadence, you should have time to reload that mag and still get your shots off. I didn’t have any trouble with any stage other than seated and with two mags, it most likely wouldn’t be an issue. That said, after borrowing another shooters tricked out 10-22 the second day, it was much easier and breaking the 210 requirement was much easier.

Don’t worry about keeping up and making rifleman though on your first time. Just go and soak up the info available. They do a very good job of teaching the fundamentals.

Another thing that might help is getting smaller targets. I like the A-36 off this page for rimfire iron sight shooting-
http://www.pistoleer.com/targets/rifle/

It gives you lots of small targets on one page so you don’t have to change it as much.

Also, a bi-pod is a good tool but I prefer a good sling for any type of shooting you will be doing with this rifle.

11

For me there areas 4 areas in precision shooting:

  1. Practice (experience)
  2. Education
  3. Natural ability
  4. Equipment

Try to identify what your biggest weakness is, and go from there. If you have the money try to attend some courses. If you think your equipment is lagging improve it.

One thing Ive learned is not everyone is going to be Carlos Hathcock or whoever else. I would rate myself above average but far from an excellent shooter. I shoot with guys who have mil sniper schools under their belts, top notch equipment, ect, and to become ‘more accurate’ you need to work on those areas I mentioned.

As far as being bored on the range I know what you mean. I find it extremely boring and a waste of ammo to shoot paper targets all day long. Luckily for me a 1k yard range opened up last year, and its filled with steel targets. Ive never shot a paper target past 300 yards but regularly shoot steel from 250-750, and sometimes 1k. If you can find a place like this you will enjoy shooting again. Nowadays the only paper shooting I do is occasional zero checks or if I buy a type of ammo I havent shot before.

Come up with some drills you can do, and don’t bother with shooting for groups all the time. You’ll drive yourself nuts. I do a few drills I came up with like going from 250 to 500 to 750. Shoot 2 rounds at each distance, adjust the scope, shoot the next distance, ect. Or at 500 we have 5 steel targets. I go from L-R or R-L. Other times if a buddy shows up we’ll spot for each other, test out new equipment, pick a target like a LaRue where you have to wait for it to pop up then shoot. Make it fun.

I work towards practical accuracy and not really getting my bench groups from .8 to .7. I enjoy the challenge of setting my stuff up and trying for a 1st round hit at 500, and then 750.

I lack formal precision education but am lucky enough to shoot with guys who have prior mil experience and know what they are doing. We’ve done informal on the fly classes and helping each other out. If you don’t have that opportunity then I suggest you seek out formal training. I have one buddy who goes around the country to formal classes, and glean knowledge from him. Read the boards, and ask questions.

As far as equipment Im not one to say pick up something and shoot it no matter its capability. Ive bought top notch stuff so I know if its me or the gun. I know its not the gun in my case, and that established a base line I can use to see how I am doing. If your gun is only capable of MOA or 2 MOA that is the best you will ever be behind that gun. If you gun is 1/2 MOA but you are only going 1-2MOA then you know you have room for improvement, and can work towards matching your guns capabilities to yours.

One thing I will tell you, though, is getting good is not cheap, and it takes a lot of range time with the correct knowledge to be practically accurate. Ive bought untolds amount of ammo in the last year trying to improve, and it takes an entire range day to improve a fraction. Im pleased that the past few months Ive been making most of my 1st round hits at extended distances, and thats only on one range. If I were thrown in an unfamiliar environment Im not so sure Id be able to do as well.

And remember shooting is only a small part of being accurate. It takes range estimation, judging wind, ect.

12

Thanks for your responses. I know it’s not cheap! And that’s why IMO the .22LR is the optimal training cartridge.

I chose to use a CZ-452 because it is known for its inherent accuracy, even with run of the mill bulk ammo. Also because it has decent iron sights, despite them being tangent sights. From what I’ve learned about these rifles, they can do 1/2 MOA @ 50 yds. So I think I’m covered in that regard.

I would like to get my hands on some Wolf MT later.

I also want to watch the Magpul Dynamics Precision Shooting video because perhaps I can pick up on the basic concepts there.

13

some of these sites offer online tutorials as well…

14

Got some links?

As far as getting creative and creating some practical accuracy drills, I honestly have no idea on what to do there. Keep in mind that as it stands, I only shoot on a static public range with an established firing line. The only thing I can think of is to find some silhouette targets that simulate a goblin at 200yds but that one can shoot at 25. Maybe I could shoot at these with the basic positions. I’m going to try a google search…

Also, what is practical accuracy for this kind of weapon? My 452 isn’t exactly a fighting rifle (and I understand that practical accuracy in terms of combat means that you’re actually hitting your target, preferably in the nipple-sternum-nipple 8" circle).

Or should practical accuracy for my .22 bolt gun be the same thing as described above regardless of it not being a “true” fighting rifle?

One more thing, at my range, they have steel plates that go out from 5 to 25yds (meant for pistols, but shooting at them with rimfire is OK). Is there any value in shooting these steel plates offhand with my bolt gun?

15

Accuracy comes from fundamentals. Bolt actions are a good place to start.

16

Bump, in the hope that others might see this and share some wisdom/insight.

17

Well first congratulations on choosing a nice rifle. I have a CZ 452 Silhouette and it goes with me to the range just about every time I go to shoot rifles. In my experience it deserves its reputation for accuracy.

I think probably the first thing you should do is really digest chapters 4 and 5 of the USMC Rifle Marksmanship field manual MCRP 3-01A. It is available in many locations. Here is one. Unzip it and you’ll have a .pdf of the manual.

http://stevespages.com/zip/united_states_marine_mcrp_3-01a%20-%2029_march_2001.zip

Then pick one kind of ammo that works well for you and your rifle. I like Federal Automatch in my 452. It may not be the most accurate of all the loads available, but it is as accurate as I need it to be for shooting steel plates, it functions well, and it’s $15 for 350 rounds so I can buy a bunch of it and not worry about how my ammo will perform.

Pick up a GI sling. There are several types and vendors. I have a Brownells Competitor Plus leather, a nylon, and a cotton. For casual shooting I prefer the cotton. It is easier to adjust than the leather sling, and it stays put on my arm better than the nylon sling. Here is one place to find them:

http://www.appleseedstore.flyingcart.com/?p=detail&pid=10&cat_id=0

While I think dry fire practice is very useful, I don’t know that I would dry fire the CZ. The firing pin smacks the back of the barrel, and… it might not be bad for it, but it does leave a little dent. I would avoid doing it. But what you can do is practice the field positions at home, sighting on something across the room or down a hallway and practicing getting into and holding the various slung positions and paying attention to how your breathing and pulse affects the sight picture.

When you go to the range, bring something to lay or sit on. A shooting mat obviously is great. A sleeping pad works. I use a surplus wool blanket. Whatever works for you.

You may wish to start off shooting from a rest on the bench, or a prone supported position, such as having a bag (or an ammo can with a towel laid across its top) to rest the forend on with your fist under the back of the stock, and shooting at paper to really learn where the point of impact is for a given point of aim, then adjust the sights as necessary to zero the rifle for your eyes.

Once you know the rifle is shooting straight, then start working on the field positions.

I prefer shooting at steel to paper. If all you have available is steel at 25 yards, then get a few of the smaller plates and have at it. You’ll be able to hit smaller to larger plates shooting prone with a sling, then sitting with a sling (cross legged is more stable for me than open legs), then kneeling with a sling, and you’ll need your largest targets for shooting off hand. But at least you can hear a ping when you connect, so you have immediate feedback rather than putting the rifle down and reaching for your binos or scope after each shot.

Depending on your eyesight, you may wish to scope the rifle to take the difficulty of using iron sights out of the equation while you work on the stability and effectiveness of your field positions, breathing, and trigger control. Then once you reach a comfortable level of proficiency with the scope, maybe go back to irons and work on developing that skill. I realize this is backwards from what is often recommended and some may strongly disagree with it, but it worked well for me. One suggestion with the scope; buy good stuff. It is frustrating to have the point of impact moving around. I have Warne steel rings and a Nikon Buckmaster and that works well for me. There are lots of ways to go here though.

Find some targets that work for you if you can not shoot steel at longer distances at your range. I find it difficult to see bullet holes in black targets. But I can see them much more easily in shoot-n-see targets, targets with red centers, or white paper plates. Put enough targets up so you can shoot for your whole fifteen minutes without having so many holes in one target that you find it difficult to keep track of where the new holes are appearing.

As your skills improve, move the targets further away and or make them smaller. You’ll have good days and bad. One your bad days put up the bigger targets and bring them closer in. Try not to drink too much coffee before heading to the range. It really does make a difference in how shaky you will be. Dress for the weather. If you’re too hot or too cold, you will not perform well. Bring some water and maybe something to snack on if you’ll be there for a while. If you’re hungry or dehydrated, you will not perform well.

Try to time your range visits so the sun will be behind you or overhead so your sights aren’t backlit and your targets aren’t in their own shadows. If you can’t avoid shooting into the sun, be sure to bring a hat with a brim to shield your eyes from the sun.

That should get you started. Hopefully other people will jump in and help steer you in the right direction. You should definitely head over to rimfirecentral and have a look around there. I think you will find some of the information there very helpful.

Good luck.

18

P, thank you for taking the time to write this.

Actually, I dry fire (to practice trigger control) all the time, and there is no firing pin damage on my CZ. I guess YMMV because I have only experience with my own CZ.

I’m lucky in that a friend let me have a basically new USGI cotton web sling that a friend did not want for his M-1. Now I just need to find some appropriately sized sling swivels, as the ones the CZ came with are too small. I just took those off and stored them in a safe place for now.

I’ve tried to look for USGI sling swivels and hardware but I’ve had no luck yet.

I don’t like to shoot from a bench, but I’ve been doing supported prone so far. Once I can get a sling on my rifle, I will practice the other field positions, especially offhand. I am lucky that my range has some steel plates for rimfires and pistols. I’ll practice on those, I guess.

Fortunately, I am not a habitual coffee drinker.

Thank you very much for your input.

19

In addition to what’s already been said I will add the following. Apologies if any of this is redundant.
A key component of precision shooting is to minimize variables. Consistancy is king at long range.
Dry fire is not just about trigger control. It is also getting comfortable in your shootng position. If you are uncomfortable or struggling with your position you will not shoot well. In the mil we called this “snapping in” and would spend a week doing it before stepping foot on the range.
Natural point of aim - get in your position and sight in. Close your eyes for 3-4 breaths and open your eyes. If your sights are off target adjust your body - not the gun. When you can open your eyes and are still on target you’ve found natural point of aim. This will keep
you from trying to muscle your sights onto the target.
Bone support - from any position you want as much bone support as
possible. This eliminates pulse, muscle twitch, etc. For example in the prone position you should have your support elbow as directly under
the gun as possible.
These are just a few things I don’t think were mentioned yet. There’s
a lot more to it and taking a precision shooting class would be a good idea.
Good luck!

20

I ordered some KNS 1.25" sling swivels for my CZ so I can put my USGI sling on it. Hopefully it’s a step in the right direction.

EDIT: I Answered my own question.