OK, What Is The Real Deal With AKs And Corrosive Ammo...?

General Firearms Other Semi-Automatic Rifles
1

We’ll call it the AK paradox.

While we all know AKs can be buried in mud and still run without a hitch and no amount of rust or abuse can stop them, we also know that corrosive ammo is like acid and begins destroying your weapon before the round is out the barrel.

Now I’m certain Russian soldiers are better trained than their African counterparts who also employ the AK, but I have a problem accepting that Soviet forces ran around with bottles of soapy water during the Cold War and addressed the issue of corrosive primers with the same stringency that would be recommended on TOS if you claimed you just shot corrosive ammo out of your original M1 Garand.

Along those lines during WWII all of our ammo was corrosive and it seems the M1s and 1911s mostly survived intact. And to the best of my knowledge GIs weren’t cleaning their Garands with soapy water either.

Now I understand that corrosive primers are basically “salt” and that promotes rust of course, and I understand soapy water is an emulsifier which allows oils to remove the contaminants. But what really happens if you don’t?

Can the mighty AK which is impervious to dust, dirt and rain really be brought low by the simple corrosive primer? Or have the effects of corrosive primers been exaggerated?

I have seen enough parts kits from the last half century to know that most of the barrels are still in pretty decent shape and having become pitted out sewer pipes yet. And I’m pretty sure they were all fed an exclusive diet of military corrosive ammo. I won’t even get started on the Moisin 91/30s that we’ve seen.

So what is the typical maintenance routine for the Russian soldier?

2

Typical Soviet ammunition was/is loaded with corrosive primers because they last longer. Soviets would load the ammo, pack it in oil-paper wrapped bundles, then seal the bundles in “Sardine cans” that can be stacked and neglected for decades.

And yes, corrosive priming is best washed out with hot soapy water.

For the M1 Rifle (FM 23-5):

  1. Cleaning, Materials, Lubricants, and Equipment.

(a.) Cleaning Materials.

(1.) Bore cleaner (cleaning compound solvent (CR)) is used primarily for cleaning the bore; however, it may be used on all metal parts for temporary (1-day) protection from rust.

(2.) Hot, soapy water or boiling water is no substitute for bore cleaner and will only be used when bore cleaner is not available.

(3.) Drycleaning solvent is used for cleaning rifles which are coated with grease, oil, or corrosion-preventative compounds.

(4.) Stubborn carbon deposits are removed by soaking in carbon removing compound (PCIII-A) and brushing. This process must be followed by the use of drycleaning solvent.

Caution: Individual protective measures must be taken when using compound PCIII-A.

FM 23-5, Change 2
BASIC FIELD MANUAL
U. S. RIFLE, CALIBER .30, M1
WAR DEPARTMENT, No. 2 Washington, January 30, 1942.

FM 23-5, July 20, 1940, is changed as follows:

11 10. IN GARRISON AND CAMP.

b. The bore of the rifle will always be cleaned by inserting a cleaning rod into the muzzle end. The cleaning rod specified in SNL B-21 is of sufficient length to permit cleaning of the bore without damage to the follower or face of bolt. If a longer rod is used, the follower and face of bolt must be protected. Numerous methods have been devised and found satisfactory. The simplest method is to block the follower and cover face of bolt with a piece of cloth stuffed into the receiver. To clean the bore, assemble a cloth patch to the cleaning rod, and insert the rod into the bore at the muzzle end. Move it forward and backward several times and replace with a new patch. Repeat until a patch comes out clean. When issue patches are not available, patches should be cut to approximately 2 1/2 inches square to permit their being forced through the bore without bending the cleaning rod. Then saturate a patch with the oil currently issued for lubrication and preservation of small arms and push it through the bore. If the above cleaner is not available, water may be used. The bore must be thoroughly dried with dry patches before it is oiled.

Caution: In cleaning the bore, care must be taken not to foul the cleaning patch in the gas port.

This is for the M1911A1 Pistol (from FM 23-35, AUTOMATIC PISTOL, CAL. .45, M1911 AND M1911A1, 1940):

• 7. CARE AND CLEANING AFTER FIRING.—

a. When a pistol has been fired the bore will be cleaned thoroughly not later than the evening of the day on which it is fired. Thereafter it will be cleaned and oiled each day for at least the next three succeeding days.

b. To clean the bore after firing, first remove the slide and barrel, insert the muzzle of the barrel in a vessel containing hot water and issue soap, hot water alone, or cold water; the cleaning rod with a cloth patch assembled is inserted in the breech and moved forward and back for about 1 minute, pumping the water in and out of the bore. When the bore is wet, a brass or bronze wire brush, if available, should be run all the way through the bore, then all the way back three or four times. Water should again be pumped through the bore. Then wipe the cleaning rod dry, remove the barrel from the water, and using dry, clean flannel patches thoroughly swab the bore until it is perfectly dry and clean. Examine the bore carefully for metal fouling.

CAUTION.—After firing do not oil the bore before cleaning.

c. Saturate a clean flannel patch with sperm oil and swab the bore and chamber with the patch, making certain that the bore and all metal parts of the pistol are covered with a thin coat of oil.

My Egyptian HRT counterparts were issued Browning Highpowers and Sig 226s and their barrels and slides were eaten up. Egyptian 9mm ammo is corrosive. When I explained they needed to remove the corrosive salts with dish soap and water of course they stared at me like I had a penis growing out the top of my head.

3

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?78905-how-to-the-russians-do-it&

4

I think that the effects of corrosive primers have been exaggerated in terms of effect on parts and greatly, greatly exaggerated on accuracy and serviceability.

I base this on my experience with Yugo builds, both M-70s and an M-72.

The Yugos were a worst case scenario of non-chrome lined barrels and the corrosive brass case ammo. The M-72 was so frosty inside I was a little bit scared, and I really went to town on it with a bronze brush and pushed out a lot of nastiness. The bore looked terrible the first time I took it out.

After blasting all that stuff out, the bore looks MUCH better, but is still overall dark and terrible… but the gun runs and is decently accurate.

So… I don’t think you can stop up an AK by running corrosive through it and not cleaning with the 17 step process that didn’t exist before the internet.

…at least not in a civil war issued to a random untrained fighter with tons of full auto and basically no maintenance.

5

First, my personal story:

I live in a dry area, and shooting Yugoslavian M67 7.62x39 ammo hasn’t caused any crazy rusting. I hose them down (with hose) then WD-40 to get the water out. It’s worked fine.

First time I shot my 5.45 rifle, used 7N6 5.45 ammo, there was some rust spotting inside the compensator, in the gas port, in the gas tube - and this was after hosing down. Now I specifically focus on those areas instead of a general “field strip and hose entire weapon”. I was surprised how fast the 5.45 got rust forming.

However, if we really look at it: gas tube? not critical. It used to have holes in it on purpose, for God’s sake, so even if you rusted it through the metal, it’d still work (pic available on request ;)). It’s more a piston guide tube than a gas tube.

Gas port? Corrosion around it wouldn’t be good, but I imagine it’d take a while before it’d actually start affecting function of the weapon. Even then, it’d be a matter of too much gas and potentially being rougher on the gun, but then they have ample gas to begin with and have ways of dealing with it.

Compensator? If the inside of the compensator is rusted it’s not going to affect the function of the weapon. Only if we had holes rusted all the way through would it affect something, and the compensator is a LOT thicker than the sheet metal of the gas tube.

So I think it’s safe to say that rust on the gun isn’t going to make it choke. I doubt the “legendary reliability” of the AK is even needed. Having said all that, I specifically want my everythings to be chrome-lined and specifically wash the guns down with a hose to prevent rust from forming. I treat it like my life may depend on it, cuz who knows? :smiley: I actually tend to focus more on the washing than on the “cleaning” (of the carbon).

And finally, on a similar vein to what sinister posted:

Chapter 5 of the 1970 AKM operator’s manual -

  1. Cleaning is done
    -in preparation for firing
    -immediately after firing at the range: receiver, barrel, gas cylinder, piston, bolt carrier, and bolt - cleaned and lubricated, and then every day for the next 3-4 days.
    -after exercises even without being fired
    -in combat, during lulls
    -no less than once a week under any other circumstances

And we also have section 44, which talks about the types of lube and “barrel cleaning solution”, which is made according to the given recipe:

  • water, potable, 1 liter
  • ammonium carbonate, 200 g
  • potassium bichromate (potash), 3-5 g

Store in glass containers with tight lids, in the dark and away from heat for not more than 7 days.

You use this by tying a bit of oakum around the jag of the cleaning rod, dipping it into the solution, then washing the barrel and other parts until clean.

6

Easier to use a bucket of hot water and a couple squirts of Dawn.

7

This gets beat to death, but I’ll get my buggy whip in here as well.

Not a Russian soldier or SME but…

As a black powder shooter I use water mixed with Ballistol to clean my cap and ball revolvers as well a SAA that I use to shoot black powder cartridges. Works like a charm, even if you don’t or can’t get all the water out of the weapon, the Ballistol prevents rust.

I use the same 90/10 water Ballistol mix to clean my Arsenal AK’s after shooting surplus ammo. Never a problem.

8

That’s been my experience after shooting corrosive ammo for twelve or thirteen years including old milsurps and AKs. I haven’t had a problem. Just don’t wait too long after rinsing.

9

Here’s a ‘maintenance’ thought, that’s probably not TOO far-fetched in MANY third world shiiteholes, BUT…

… would WHIZZING on it, take care of some of those corrosive salts? :eek: There’s know to be some ammonia in human whiz, don’tcha know!

10

That’s what I do.

11

Well whiz does help protect bluing :wink:

If this was a serious question, however, no, that’s bad. Water is 900 times better at dissolving potassium chloride than ammonia. Why would you want to use a substandard solvent? Especially when I have a device that attaches to my house that gives me as much of the optimal solvent as I want? (It’s called a hose :p)

Solubility of KCl in various solvents (g KCl / 1 kg of solvent at 25°C)[4]

H2O 360
Liquid ammonia 0.4

12

I accidentally left an AK out in a barn after shooting a bunch of corrosive ammo, it was left in the barn for about 5 months. There was ALOT of surface rust but nothing pitted. l just wiped it off with a heavy soaking of clp and it was fine.

I’ve never had an AK rust in my house but l do usually clean it if l shoot corrosive, l dont freak out about it though, l usually clean it within a week, never had any problems. Guess l’m lucky though, most peoples AKs rust completely shut just on the way home from the range after shooting corrosive ammo according to the interweb.

13

Just clean it the same day you shoot it and you will be fine.

14

Not unless you scrub the shit of it or use water. I know, I’ve tried. I shot my 5.45 and hosed it out with brake cleaner and relubed. Corrosion showed up.

15

I will be the guinea pig if y’all want. I bought a build from an original Bulgy kit with the original barrel and have put exactly 300 rounds through it. Storage is an important factor so it’s stored in an non ventilated locked room in my garage, uncovered.

  • it has never been cleaned since shooting
  • last shooting session was 3 weeks ago
  • all ammo is 5.45 corrosive
  • prior to first time firing, it was heavily lubed with SLP2000. Has not been lubed since.
  • 300 rounds, I will keep track and take photos.

Sorry for the brevity, I’m on my phone at Panera steaming that they removed the Jalapeño and Cheddar bagel from the menu which is another story… I’m going to punch someone!

16

LOL, I think they call this “first world problems”.

17

If you aren’t using water, you aren’t cleaning it.

18

Why would a US soldier use soap and water when the bore cleaner he was issued was specifically designed to remove salt residue. There were two different types used in WW2 and both were water based. The soldier was also instructed to clean for multiple days after firing the weapon. The US military had extensive problems with barrels rusting going as far back as the Krag rifle era. After understanding the issue bore cleaners (water based) were developed to deal with the problem.

19

I didn’t know that, thanks.

20

Today, I’d rather use soap and water. OR, as some do, Ballistol mixed in water. I have some GI bore cleaner - but the stuff is a bit caustic. I think all is OK if you clean/spray down well with Ballistol, he dump boiling water into the barrel, breech, gas tube, etc. Then, clean up with Ballistol or breakfree and wipe down. Unless you are in a place like Camp Darby (Benning) in July-Sep, or worse, and run it without a clean for weeks, I think it is a bit over-hyped.