Of barrels, barrel lengths and brakes for precision rifles

General Firearms Precision Rifle - Bolt Gun
1

I’m doing some upgrades to my precision rig which I mainly use for testing out ideals vs. a duty rifle. The upgrades are also aimed at improving it as a training tool. So I thought this would be a good oppertunity to learn the subject from some of the better versed folks on this board.

Here is the only Article I have seen on the topic:
BARREL LENGTH AND THE PRECISION RIFLE

My current test rifle is a .300WM Savage 110 from Stockade, with a 26" 1 in 10 barrel, no brake. I used this rifle to test out some of the basic ideals behind writing a requirement for my day job. Better hands took those ideals to a real solution, but thats a differant story. I’m also looking to build eiter a .308 or a .260 that is lighter/handier. I don’t get to shoot truely long range often, but want to maintain a viable rifle should I get to some of the classes on my training list. Most of my “precision” work is done with a Noveske SPR inside 600m.

So back to the question, whats the best “balance” for a .300WM barrel and a .308 barrel?

.300WM:
First from my seat at least going to a .300WM means a truely “dedicated” LR platform that should be optimized for that purpose. However, it must also remain manuverable and not be unwieldy due to size weight. High round counts in short amounts of time are not what it’s for. The current 26" barrel is plenty accurate, but balances to far forward for my taste and is unwieldy for most uses.

My thought is that I would bring it down to a 22" barrel and then add the brake, leaving the OAL barrel around 24". Another option would be Magna Porting vs. installing a brake. Those 4" come with a FPS loss, but I believe that I am still ahead for the training envelope I’m looking at between 500m and 1000m. What’s wrong with that ideal, if anything? What am I overlooking?

Oh, mainly shooting 190gr Black Hills and looking for a good source for 220gr SMK loads.

.308::stop:

Short action .308 riles have been the go to precision standard for decades for good reason. That said I’m looking at a slightly differant take on short action rifles. KevinB strongly believes in 16" EMC’s from discussion at a class earlier this year and several others on this board also like short barrels for their precision .308 AR’s. I have not noticed much discussion of them on blot guns. I’m not debating .308’s work out to 1,000 or even beyound, but are they optimal? Probably not.

So, if I redefine the primary use for .308 as a general purpose calibier or “Police” round which will most commonly be used inside 800m or even 600m (ok, for Police inside 100m) whats the best length? I have a hunting rifle (788 Carbine) in 7-08 with a 18" barrel that has uncanny accuracy. Hence I’m swayed that 18" is a sweet spot, but maybe a quality 16" bolt gun is “as good” as a 16" EMC. Or on the other hand do I need 22’ or even 24" to get the most out of my rifle.

Brakes:
First I want to add a brake to increase my ablity to self spot. You would think a 13+ pound rifle would stay in place, but not my .300WM. Precison rifle brakes are sometimes discussed, but I’ve never seen a detailed comparision test of any of the major brands, Surefire, AAC, Badger, VAIS(not realy a “tactical” brake), ect. Is any such data published some were, or do we do it here? I believe, even if it’s not an option for lay peaple in NYS:mad: the requirement should include the ABLITY to mount a suppressor so please include any experiances you have with those also. Right now I’m looking at using a Surefire MB762-401R for use (someday) with the FA762MG on my .300WM.

Thanks and I look forward to any discussion.

2

I’m a big Surefire guy. My buddy ordered his 300 with an SF brake and we should be getting it soon, looking forward to it. Note that the 762MG is the size of the 338 can and they use the same adapters. Unless I’m mistaken-the usual caveat. I’d probably get the 338 can and use it for all my precision rifles.

3

In regards to 300 WM barrel length.

In my opinion shortening the barrel on the 300 WM will only take away from it one of its greatest advantages over a standard 308. A big advantage of a 300 WM over a 308 is being able to stay supersonic with a 30 caliber bullet much farther than a standard 308, giving you a greater effective range to engage targets at. By decreasing barrel length and reducing the velocity, you are shortening its maximum effective distance. Shorten it enough and you may run into a lower velocity that results in no significant range increase over a standard 308, but at the cost of more expense per shot and greater recoil. I have seen articles claiming that with some magnum cartridges you can lose between 40-50fps per 1" reduction of the barrels. At that rate, reducing just 4"of barrel length can possibly cause up to a 200fps drop in velocity, which will certainly add up to a decreased effective range. Using your definition of the 300 WM as a truly dedicated LR rifle, decreasing the effective range by lowering the velocity would seem to go against its desired role as a true LR platform.

Also as you shorten barrel length on a 300 WM you reduce the rifles weight, resulting in more perceived recoil for the shooter. More recoil can possibly degrade the shooters ability to shoot accurately or for extended range sessions to gather good DOPE. You may be able to counter the additional recoil with a good muzzle brake though.

4

I agree with the above. An advantage a 300WM has over .308 is the larger case which allows it to hold more powder. More powder equals higher velocity. Higher velocity equals flatter trajectory and better terminal ballistics.

If you shorten the barrel then you won’t burn the full powder charge which basically you’re are not going to see its full potential. The 300WM was made to keep the barrel longer. Now, a .308 is a great platform for a shorter barrel. It has good velocity and decent BC’s with a higher grain bullets, with the exception of the 155 Sierra MK used in Palma. I’m currently building a 18.5" .308 with a “tight bore” to help keep velocity as high as I can. It should still give me around 2550-2590 velocity muzzle readings. The .308 doesn’t do one thing particularly excellent but it does many things well. Can shoot to 1,000 yards with a relatively short barrel, heavy grain projectiles to penetrate intermediate barriers, and can be 1/4 moa accurate. That is why the .308 is so common and widely used. A shorter barrel in some circumstances are commonly more accurate becuase the barrel is more stiff or rigid, (less harmonics to effect bullet stability).

5

I went out on a limb and have two short barreled rifles. They are in 300wm and .308. I have found out a few things with these rifles, the first being the .308 losses less velocity per inch then the 300wm. I also found out they dont loose as much velocity as people think. Both of the rifles are Savage Precision Carbines the .308 has a 14.5 inch barrel with fixed brake, and the 300wm is the standard for the rifle 20 inch. I have a Sendero to compare the 300wm to as this is what I found 168gr barnes ttsx 3 shot avg out of savage was 3210fps, 3 shot average out of Remmy was 3450fps avg loss per inch of barrel was 40fps. Factory Winchester 150gr PP ammo was 3 shot avg of savage was 3103fps, and 3 shot avg out of Remmy was 3240fps. Avg loss per inch of barrel was 22.83fps. I dont know why my handloads loose more velocity then factory ammo. I dont think I will have any trouble pushing 208 amax rounds at 2,750 which will make this a very light long range rifle. Accuracy with the factory ammo was sub moa.

The .308 is a shooter, it is accurate with just about anything you shoot out of it. 130ttsx to 175SMK it just shoots. .250-.500 groups are the norm and velocity with 175smk with the max charge of varget are right at 2600fps. I would not want a long barrel .308 after owning this I just dont see the advantage for what it is used for. My daughter uses it to shoot out to 800yds on steel, and shoots some bench rest with it. It is going into a either a new stock or chassis in the next month.

I think my next rifle is going to be a 18inch 260 for my son. I dont think you would have any problems with a 22 inch 300wm, My savage in .308 was always faster then my LTR with the same loads. It may have a fast chamber/barrel it was usually 40fps faster then the Remmy when they each had 20 inch tubes.

6

I would leave the 300WM around 26" and go much shorter on the 308 (16-18").

I would not plan on shooting a braked gun in a LE/duty situation. If you plan on running the can ‘full time’ then a break can help protect the can.

My 16" Sr25 works great at 750…not so much at 1k. Not the guns fault but I don’t think 308 is a good 1k round caliber. Yes people have made amazing shots with it well past that but IMO its way too environmentally limited at that distance. I shoot with some guys who are mil trained and dedicated bolt gun guys. At 1k 300WM is a much more desirable caliber, and for a dedicated LR rig I would not want to hinder the gun by cutting the barrel too short. If you are looking to shoot 800+ barrel length is not a significant factor mobility wise. The needs of LR performance trump any mobility gains with a shorter barrel. On the other hand I don’t feel hindered at all with a 16" 308 gas gun to at least 750, and I regularly can put more accurate fire on targets at that range than the bolt gun guys can.

I’ve done some 1k yard shooting with the 16" 308, and in ideal conditions it would work but thats not really realistic. With even a 3-4MPH wind change between you and the target it can draw your round off target by a good margin. With the ballistic data I have a 300WM with a heavy bullet at a good clip will have less than half the wind deflection a 308 will have.

I talked to another member about this, and if you look at the trend several western military’s have gone to is a 308 gas gun and a magnum bolt action. USA has the M110 and now a 300WM bolt. Brits have gone to a 308 gas and 338 bolt. A well made gas gun in 308 is good to 800 reliably, and a good magnum bolt action can handle things to 1300-1500 with a good shooter. Inside that 800 the 308 gas gun can put rounds on target quicker, hold more rounds, and be just as effective accuracy wise in a practical sense. With modern gas guns capable of sub-MOA accuracy any SLIGHT loss in accuracy going to a gas gun for 308 is more than made up for by mag capacity and being able to put rounds on target quicker.

7

A few things to add after reading the article linked in your first post. The article states that velocity loss is greater in the 300 WM with loads firing heavy bullets that require slower burning powders. That is exactly the loads you are describing using, bullets in the 190-220gr range. For that reason alone I wouldn’t want to chop much off the barrel below 24" so I can get the utmost performance out of the ammo you plan on using. My own experience handloading for the 300 WM and talking with a few other friends who do so also, show that the heavy bullets do best with slower burning powders in the 300 WM. If you were shooting a lighter bullet with a faster powder, then like the article says the velocity loss is not as great, but with your intended ammo, and if you wanted a true LR platform, I wouldn’t go much below 24".

Chuckhawks has a pretty good compilation of data from a few different sources on barrel length and velocity gain/loss. http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm

But in regards to it being a LR platform, I noticed you stated the use for the 300 WM would be between 500-1,000m. The 300WM will definently be preferred past 800 in my opinion, but a 308 would serve fairly well in the stated role with a greater positive impact on training and cost. If you extended the range out to say 1,200m then I would go 300 WM all the way. But within 1,000m and in your not really maximizing your use of the 300 WM which would beg me to question, why 300 WM then? A 308, 30-06, etc. would be just as good and cheaper.

You also state the 300 WM as being unweildly with a 26" barrel for most uses. Can you elaborate on what uses you have in mind? Were talking about a LR platform, not a urban set-up or something for kicking in doors with. In my opinion laying on my belly or in hide from 500m and beyond (your stated purpose) I see no reason why a 20", 22", 24", or 26" barrel would matter. I will take the 26" barrel any day if it means I can connect with a target at 1,200m if the chance presents itself, instead of wishing I hadn’t cut the barrel down and my new max range being something less, and leaving the shot to chance. I carried a M24 around for 16 months in Afghanistan with a 24" barrel and I personally didn’t have a problem with that length. I used it from close engagements to distant ones and it handled everything fine, if the barrel was 2" longer I cant see that it would have bothered or hindered me at all. I would rather carry around a few extra inches of barrel and not need it, than be confronted in a situation where the extra barrel length and increased effective range in a LR platform would be desired but not there because I shaved a few inches off for kicking in doors (not the intended purpose anyways) or to save a few ounces on weight.

8

John,

I’m tracking. I grew up on the line so never spent any time in a hide site waiting for the shot. I have dabbled in true long range, like the 18th ABN Corps Sniper Comp in 91? (2nd place team) and SniperCraft around the same time, but am comfortable I know my limits. At range I’d say I have enough “flat range” knowledge of sniping to have a discussion, but wouild not pretend to be an expert. I know more about planning support then planning at the sniper team level.

Did that even make sense?

My primary range statement reflects more the ranges availble to me localy than the full range I want to use it at in training classes. Getting out to 1200 or more is an objective, but until I ditch the day job something low in priority.

I had a few discussions on this topic today and still forming/refining my opnions. Some of the issues I’ve stated me just be MY rifle set up. I’ve used others that I liked more with similure barrels. Like many things you have to find a balance of many times conflecting options to achieve your objective. Again in MY case this is a training/test rifle not a duty one. That said the information in general is useful. If we actualy had a real gun shop around this forsaken post it would help.

Again I’m in the listening mode, for those with better experiance to educate, nots of good points.

9

Give this article a read.

“As a result of their tests, Tac Ops decided not to go below 22 inches on their .300 Win. Mag. tactical precision rifle, the Alpha 66. According to Mike Rescigno, President of Tac Ops, the 22-inch barrel is ideal for the tactical shooters that are going to use the 190-grain Federal Match ammo. There isn’t any loss of performance by going to the 22-inch barrel and this round. The Alpha 66 still provides 1/4-MOA or better accurac”

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/swatdec2000/index.html

10

.308 will do 1K with accuracy unless you use too short a barrel.
20’s are too short with all but a very few loads or really pushing pressures. You won’t know without testing them.
24 should do any reasonable load to 1K
If you want real accuracy you need to be supersonic at your maximum range (plus a bit to allow a margin for conditions) with the load you want.
Lots of guys use that article to support short barrel long range .308’s and it really does not such thing.

20 inch .308’s should get to 800ish with most loads.

Once you start getting subsonic your accuracy drops. The different BC’s of projectiles, slightly different speeds causes group splitting and other behaviour which drops your accuracy right back. Some projectiles may be “ok” but it really depends on what you call accurate and what you want to hit.

I’ve yet to see anyone getting down to MOA accuracy having gone subsonic. 2MOA or so, yes but that does not interest me much.
If you want to be just hitting stuff then it likely does not matter a great deal for you.

I wouldn’t bother with a.300wm till you are past 800.

11

Call me old fashioned…as I would stick with the 26 inch barrel for a .300 Mag and a 24 incher for a .308 Win. on heavy barrelled rifles. I just like to attain the target velocity without having to hot rod the loads.

For lighter hunting style rifles where I’m trying to avoid excess rifle weight, give me a 22 inch featherweight contour on the .308 Win. I could be happy with a 20 inch barrel, too, as long as it shoots decent groups.

12

20 inch .308’s should get to 800ish with most loads.

I have not seen a 20 inch .308 that wont do that. My daughters rifle is nothing special and at 14.5 it does it in boring fashion. I hope she gets to try it at 1000yds this summer, it was not meant for this I am just curious to see if it falls apart the last 200yds.

The 300wm is better with a longer barrel. Velocity is important and the only reason I did one short is for tree stand work and easy carrying in woods. I shared my info to show how my two 300wm compare with 6 inch barrel difference. It is a big difference but even at 20 inch the 300wm looks like it is going to be very effective.

13

+1

I would make an exception on canned 308s down to 22"

14

What happens with the loads that “don’t?” Do the bullets just fall out of the air at 800? Even at a very conservative 2500fps MV from the 20" barrel a 175SMK should be above transonic velocities at 800. 800 yards for a 20" 308 should be no problem at all.

15

I have no problem holding an IPSC plate at 1000yds with my 18" krieger barreled 308. I primarily shoot 175SMK. Last summer I shot to 1200yds with it.

Now, this will only be happening on days when the conditions are perfect however. With the heavy south dakota winds, it is not uncommon to have a 2-3 mil hold at 1000yds. When the wind is blowing like that, my hit percentage goes from 95% down to about 60%… and it takes all I can muster to manage that.

While a short barreled 308 can shoot at distance… it certainly doesn’t do it with authority. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It is a remarkable learning tool though… as you really need to be on your game to make hits when the wind is blowing.

A 308 shooting 155 vld’s up around 3000fps out of a 28" barrel will REALLY show you what a 308 is capable of. So, just realize your limitations, and your rifles.

16

Guys remember a .308 is still just a .308. It is out of wind at 800 to say nothing of 1K. That being said I shoot long range and do it with a .308 in matches out to 800 yards. My rifle has a 22" barrel and is on it’s last legs. When it is re-barreled it will be at 20".

I was helping a buddy out with his dope 2 weeks ago. He was shooting a 17" .308 and making head shots @ 700 with minimal effort under nice conditions.

The shorter you go the harder it is to control so a break or a can is recommended not so much for recoil, but to minimize jump and get back on target.

Factory ammo will also limit your options as most .308 factory ammo is pretty anemic so if you shoot FGMM in a 26" barrel PSS you’re getting the same performance out of a 22" barrel with moderate hand loads.

17

I am assuming you are talking about factory loads and short barrels.

Because my Palma handloads are nowhere near out of wind at 800 yards, and still have enough ass to make it to 1000 in style provided I pay attention to the wind.

It does take a 30" tube to take full advantage of the charge to get those Lapua 155s trucking at 2990 fps.

18

You have to admit that Palma is a different animal completely though. I would dare 99% of shooters to make first or second round hits with a .308 on an IPSC target at 1K and something tells me I wouldn’t pay off too often! Under the best of conditions I can do this at 800.

19

Oh, I’m tracking with you there.

IIRC both USPSA and IDPA targets are 18" across. Yep, not that many can reliably get that on the first shot. I usually can’t unless it’s dead calm.

20

If it’s jumping around… then you have not built NPA correctly. I shoot short 308’s without the issue you mention. The only time it happens is when I’m not paying attention to my position behind the rifle.

Not that many can do it, because not that many put in the time required to do so. I can do it about 80% of the time with my 18" 308 so long as the wind is below 10mph. Just because you cannot do a thing, doesn’t mean it is not achievable or even commonplace. You guys really need to stop speaking in absolutes when it comes to shooting. The 308win, with newer powders and newer bullets, has completely re-written the “laws” of old. Go watch some palma shooters or F-class guys run their 308’s. Don’t sit here and try to tell me that a bullet with a .500 BC flying at 3000fps won’t get to 1000yds with authority. 18" target is just shy of 1moa, and this is BORING at 1000 if there is little to no wind. Introduce a 5mph crosswind and things start to get sporting. Introduce a 10mph wind… and it gets very difficult.

If you want to argue the point, I expect you to give me the data disproving what I’ve said. I, and others have put the work in on 308’s via thousands of rounds of handloads and even more money in barrels and rifles to “know” rather than just read on the internet and regurgitate when the topic comes up.