I am looking at a Noveske 16.1 recon in 6.8.Does anyone have one of these.
Can someone tell me of their opinion of this company. How are the triggers and are they guaranteed to shoot .5 moa?
How do they compare to a Les Baer 6.5 Grendal.
All opinions appreciated.
This is what I usually recommend to people. A 6.5 Grendel is better round than the 6.8SPC for longer ranges (500+ yards). The 6.8SPC excells in the 0-300 yards.
Both are very accurate, especially with handloads.
The Noveske 6.8SPC is very nice and accurate, but it cannot handle the hotter loads like a Ko-Tonics, PRI, or Barret.
a lot of info on that site thanks. I am leaning torward the BARRETT. I wish you could get the Baer with the collapsable stock and flash suppressor.
My co-worker has the recon in 5.56. Needless to say, it’s a work of art, smooth trigger, matched upper/lower and performs flawless. If you want a top rate AR system go Noveske.
Let’s not rehash caliber here, 6.5 vs 6.8, each has their pros and cons. Define your use and need for the AR. If the 5.56 doesn’t cut it and the 308 is too much
What are you looking for defense, fun or end of the world as we know it and the zombies are coming? If you want 6.8 info ask Zak Smith. LOL
what makes the PRI and Barrett take hotter loads? I know Kotonics uses a 1-11 twist barrel… What about other makers of uppers- JTAC, Talon arms, Denny’s, MSTN, etc, etc, etc.
thanks,
Artyman
Those companies use a different chamber spec than SAMMI. It has a longer throat (similar to the way Weatherby did to get higher velocities from there loads). The SAMMI spec needs to be fixed anyways. Based on their specs if a barrel had a minimum spec chamber and a ammo manufacturer had a near
maximum length spec cartridge it wouldn’t chamber and worse if it just did it would cause higher than normal pressure.
Sorry to getting some what off track.
I have a WOA barrel one of Denny’s, which is technally a Wilson, it has a normal cut chamber SAMMI spec and 11:1 twist and it handles some of the hottest loads out there. Now back when Silver State was still making their plated extreme bullet it would cause issues in all but the longer throats. But that was caused more by the bullet then the powder charge.
From my experience and many others from what I’ve seen on a few sites both reduce the pressure in different ways. Either will allow what most would consider very hot loads to be used. So to answer your question any with an 11:1 twist or a “improved” chamber or a combination of both will allow hotter than normal loads. There was a few problems early on with the improper Chrome lining of some barrels that cause very tight chambers that caused problems but I haven’t heard of any lately. If you want to see how hot they can be loaded without pressure signs take a look over on http://www.68forums.com/ in the reloading section. Look at some of the loads by Constructor and paulosantos between the two fo them I believe they have tested just about every bullet powder combo there is out there that fit in an AR-15 then some. So here’s a break down:
10:1 SAMMI : normal loads SSA normal and all other companies, handloads not exceeding recommended published max
11:1 SAMMI : hotter loads SSA combat or handloads
10:1 Improved SAMMI : hotter loads SSA Combat loads or hot handloads
11:1 Improved SAMMI : hotter loads SSA Combat loads or hot handloads
I believe as DocGKR has hypothesized previously in a few posts on different boards that a 12:1 twist would be ideal if you were only going to shoot lighter weight bullets, which is really the only ones being offered in factory loadings at this time 90-115 grain.
Further more the number grooves the barrel has also makes a difference on pressure as well. The less grooves the lower the pressure possibly more velocity. I believe the ideal barrel setup to get the most overall out of the round would be a 12:1 twist, 4 or 5R groove, Improved SAMMI chamber. I believe this would allow up to 115 grain bullets, of whats available, to be stabilized. Allowing you to load the round as hot as feasibly possible. The 16" length getting the most out of the round based on velocity, as longer barrels show marginal increases in vel. 18" would be the reasonable max IMHO.
Well there’s a whole lot more than you wanted to know. But now at least you have the parameters to see which companies barrels match up to your needs. At this time no one is offering a 12:1 twist, you would have to get that custom, and the only one that offers a combination of twist, chamber, and grooves is Kotonics. All the reports I have seen on them have been very positive. They seem to have exceptional customer service. Tim is the owners name and it seems to be a high priority with him which is always a good sign. His prices are also some of the most reasonable. Danny is also great as I know first hand.
Tim Welter
Tim,
Thanks much for the information. I’m about to “pull the trigger” so to speak on a 6.8 build, but the big hold up is about barrels. Your write up was the most comprehensive I’ve seen and answers most of my questions.
Do you know whose barrels specifically can handle the SSA combat loads? I just can’t seem to find any specifics beyond 1:11 or 1:10 on most company’s sites.
Thanks again,
Artyman
You aren’t going to find a higher quality barrel than what Noveske puts out. Quality of materials, quality of machining, and attention to detail puts them at the top of the pile.
Now you have me leaning torward the Noveske. I was thinking of maybe a Les Baer in 6.5 but I really like the looks of the Noveske.
I think highly of your opinion. Thanks
I agree completely with your statement except for the last part. To be top of the pile it would need to have the 11:1 twist or the Improved SAMMI chamber or both. I can’t say this for absolute certainty but I believe people have had trouble with pressure when they tried to run hot loads that ran in other 11:1 barrels without a problem. Now it does have the polygonal rifling which in theory should reduce the pressure problems some. Now as far as everything else is concern quality, accuracy, they are one of the best and probably the best of readily available barrels. You do pay $ for it which is to be expected.
My Denny Recon 16" WOA/ barrel get sub .5 moa with handloads and .5 moa with SSA 115 OTM target load and the 110 hunter load . I can run almost exactly the same hot loads posted by Constructor. The vel. is a bit lower because I have a 16" not 18" and I’m at 1500 above sea level not 9000 +. I think I read a post where they used the SSA combat loads in a Noveske and had some flatting of the primers but nothing beyond that. I think if your going to be shooting only factory you might be able to get away with it possibly, because of the polygon rifling, but every individual barrel is different to some extent. Maybe someone with one and expereince can weight in? I am far from the most knowledgeable here. In fact I am probably way down the list but I can read what others post and what I see first hand and sometime even make some good logical deductions but that about it. Most of my past experience comes from the trigger not the design room but I do have some ideas from years of use.
What it comes down to is what’s good enough for you. Do you want / need to run on the ragged edge. I like to tinker so… How accurate do you need? Do you need to pay a premium for a barrel? Are your skills up to noticing the difference? The Konotincs barrels have all the mods for shooting hot rounds and have the ability to shoot .5 moa with certain factory loads even more so when handloading. How much better do you need then that? The round is only good out to 600 y/m anyways and this isn’t a benchrest round or gun for that matter. When you get into sub .5 moa that really only matters as you go out to long ranges, which at the time, the bullets with high BCs aren’t available to do so (800-1000y/m+).
So it comes down to what you need/want. Is it important to you to have the very best quality but not the best twist or chamber or to have very good quality and get a barrel that can shoot anything out there and then some but it may be a little lower in quality? Are you going to notice the difference? Some do and it matter a lot to them. In my mid-long range rifle I could have gone with a Remmy or Savage and had a very good rifle but I wanted one of the very best from factory so I got a Sako Trg-22 it was worth the extra grand to me. For many it wouldn’t be. For me shoot .25 moa mid and .5 moa long range was what I wanted and in this instance needed to a certain extent. At least I convinced myself of that.
Now you get to go through the hair pulling time of trying to make your decision and balance your wants and needs:D 
. I hate that part because I always want the very best but sometimes its not what I get because I realize I won’t be able to take advantage of the increase. There are also trade offs in this instance.
My next barrel for SBR is going to be Rock 5R 12:1 10.5-14.5 not sure on length yet learning more to the shorter end probably settle on 11.5. IT will be an entry CQB and double as home protection.
Tim Welter
One idea I just thought of, if you really want the Noveske barrel you could have the chamber throat increased to make it the Improved SAMMI spec. The only difference between the two is in the increased throat length. That would actually give you close to the barrel DocGR used in the testing of the round. It was a Rock 10:1 5R barrel. It was a hair splitting tack driver from the results I’ve seen.
TFW
Lt. Col. D. Lutz at KAC put a Noveske bbl in the 6.8 Bushmaster he won on AR-15.com and it is a .25 in gun with a flashhider. Pretty impressive.
The knowledge on this forum and the level of experience is waaaaay over my head. I think I will just read and try to absorb some information from those on this forum who have more experience than me and try to learn something.
Thanks to everyone.
Now that is impressive!! Both the rifle and the shooter. There’s no aruging with those results. Given their quality control that says even more about what you can expect from their barrels. Just wish they would drop their twist to 11:1 and I would have one to go along with their 14.5" 5.56 I have.
Tim Welter
That’s an excellent idea! That’s how I learned most of what I regurgitated in my posts above. We all have to learn from some place. I always lurk and read as much on a site as I can then start posting ? or help others in finding info. It does take time that unfortunately, a lot of people aren’t willing to spend. Then you get the same questioned asked repeatedly.
Tim Welter
Tim,
If it were a concern for the shooter, they could contact John Noveske and explain what they weer looking for. He would certainly be a good judge of his equipment for modifications, and could give solid reasons why. Plus he is a heck of a good guy.
My conversations with John have always yielded more information than a trigger puller like myself has a need to know. 
In my experience w/ all three cartridges, the 6.8 is rather useless…it doesnt really offer a whole lot when compared to the 77GR MK262 5.56 Cartridge. It hits a little harder, but has a rainbow trajectory. I would either go Noveske 5.56, or if you are serious about the 6.5 Grendel Cartridge, check out
http://www.saternmachining.com/
They make THE best Grendel Barrels. I chose a Noveske Recon over Satern on my current build just because John was so helpful answering my questions. YMMV. I will probably get flamed, but In my experience, the 6.8x45 is a slow round with a rainbow trajectory. It hits harder out to 300 yards but what are you shooting at 300 yards? Paper Targets? Then it shouldnt matter Comes down to personal preference.
Good luck
Thanks Trey!
Yes, the 6.8 Carbine I have with the Noveske barrel is about my favorite carry piece at the moment. His barrel made all the difference. Pics of the carbine going through its transition from stock BM to its current form can be viewed at ar15.com.
I would post them here , but don’t know how.
Sir, email them to my Gmail account and I can host them for you.
I agree with that. While I have never talked to John Noveske personally, I don’t think I have heard a negative thing about him or his products from anyone respectable.
I’m sure he wouldn’t have much of a problem doing the long throat but changing the twist would obviously cause, at the very least, a considerable wait if its at all possible, since his barrels aren’t cut rifling, but I could be wrong.
As far as why he does it the way he does. I know the 10:1 twist was what was setup for the testing and final (at least so far) for the ones in use in the military as this was posted somewhere here or TOS by the good Doctor. I believe it was stated that there was concern about stabilizing the heavier bullet at extreme (-20+) temps. Obviously not a big concern for most. Also to note that the results I saw were with a 5R barrel. As for the chamber cut, Remington really screwed the pooch on this one, with that possibly dangerous SAMMI Spec. This was also after the testing and rifles at that the time had the longer throats. There was a lot of confusion on that for quite some time and throwing in the plated bullet, bad chrome plating on some barrels issues with Sammi specs, well not good at all. I think Remington knew good and well what they were doing,sour grapes IMHO. I don’t know this first hand, just seems like a large amount of compelling evidence. I can completely understand why most companies went the way they did.
1: the military and testing showed a 10:1 so why wouldn’t you go with that.
2: Remington made the SAMMI spec they should know what’s right. Hell its their round and for liability sake its probably a good idea. As far as Art coming up with the extended throat (if it was him I don’t recall) was to fix the problem with the plated bullets that the military wanted to use. IMO I think they fell into the reduced overall pressure for all ammo effect as a side bonus. Not sure how the lower number of grooves came about.
As far as the effects of these specs, I think there are enough barrels out there and testing done that prove these things. The only one I could point out that might could use more evidence is the number of grooves showing benefit in pressure. On paper it works out but reality can be different.
I think my favorite loading is going to be 90-100 grain one reg one bonded loaded to 2900+ at least with the 90’s. From what Constuctor and PaulS have posted and what I have tried thats going to be the all loading. Probably great for 2 legged and not bad for some 4. They shoot flatter or as flat as the .308 past 500 I think. Whats great is those rounds can surely be stabilized by 12:1 add in the other specs and damn 3000+ fps wouldn’t be out of the question. Now that sound great to me and a goal of mine if no one comes up with a bonded in those weights I might just buy the equipment and make them myself. I’ve always wanted to try my hand at making my copper bullets. Can’t think of a better excuse.
I would love to see a line of round: HP, SN, a Bonded, a frag, AP, and lastly a cheap FMJ for practice. That would be my complete line of bullets for two legged targets all from 90-100 grain in weight. No reason it can’t be done and I think it would be popular.
Stickman,
Does Noveske make all the ar-15 barrels for Pac-Nor? Reason I ask is when I go to their site and click on the Ar barrel link it takes me to the Noveske site. Whats their relationship? Any ideas on this?
Tim Welter