Not a big fan of the .40

Not sure if this was best for the handguns section or the terminal ballistics section but:

It’s taken me years to finally decide i’m not a big fan of the .40. If I want to make big holes - 'cause I likes big holes - I prefer the .45 ACP. If I want higher capacity, low recoil, and very fast follow up shots, I like the 9mm (though with time spent training, my splits between them is not great). I don’t like the recoil pulse of the .40. I prefer the thump/recoil pulse of the .45 or the light recoil of the 9mm regardless of the platform. The .40 has a snap to it I just don’t favor. In polymer guns, the .40 adds a whip to the recoil I don’t like. Due to the huge improvements in bullet designs over time, (or so it appears from my readings via Dr Roberts eta l) the terminal ballistics between a good 9mm - .40 - .45 is surprisingly small, so at this point, I would probably opt for a 9mm due to low recoil and high capacity or the .45 ACP (my daily CCW), but the .40 just does not seem to fit into my firearms preference.

Conversely, a fan of the .40 could also say you get close 9mm capacity with close .45 ACP terminal ballistics, so I “get” both sides, but the above is where the .40 has landed for me to date.

So slap me back into reality in favor of the .40 or agree with me, or something in between? :cool:

I agree on every point except for the recoil. It is more noticeable than 9mm but it doesn’t seem any different than other recoil pulses.

I agree on the above mentioned for myself as well. .45 and 9mm are where i chose to spend my time and money. I have had .40’s but ultimately dumped them.

As did I.

I’ve shot my G17 and G22 back to back and don’t find the recoil difference to be significant. The capacity is about the same and the reliability is exactly the same so…

I just can’t wrap my warm and fuzzy around the “modern bullet” design notion and performance in jello.

I’m trying to grow to like my crappy M&P 45, but right now I’m far and away most confident carrying my old G22.

You don’t like your M&P .45? I don’t own one, but have shot the full sized, and my experience was positive. I’m just not a big fan of DAO polymer guns, but if I had to have one, the M&P .45 would be on the short list.

Will I hear what your saying I own 40 cals shoot them on occasion but 99% of the time just carry my 9mm I dont think its a bad round at all some seem to love it I dont as much as I used to costs. That being said I got smoking deals on the ones I have so I will most likely end up keeping them that and they are HI CAPS and NY legal so I got to take what I can get.

Hello,

I’m not a fan of the .40S&W cartridge either, but I’ll always keep at least three or four .40 caliber Browning High Powers on hand, just in order to have the caliber covered in case of hard times.

Actually, I believe anyone that’s willing to take a stand when the time comes to Defend Their Freedoms should have platforms for all the main calibers, and that especially goes for rifles as well.

I agree. I’m not a fan of the .40 either. I now only own 9mm and .45.
I’ve shot the G23 and G19 back to back and I shot the G19 much better. I can even shoot .45 better than I can shoot .40

Good point, the 45 is just more accurate than the 40. If you need that kind of 3x5 accuracy, the 45 is an advantage.

M_P

Are we sure about that? I have not seen anything that shows the .45 is inherently more accurate than the .40. Source?

I also have consolidated my collection to just .45 and 9mm. Nothing against the .40, but for me, there were a couple of things that caused me to prefer the .45:

  • Like the 1911, and .45 is the original and best caliber for the 1911.
  • Couldn’t find a really significant difference between the .40 and the 9mm–other than the negatives that the .40 gives you less capacity and more recoil.
  • Wanted a caliber that would create a “bigger hole” (permanent wound channel, to use the terminal ballistics term). Quality 9mm defensive ammo can be effective as .45, but from the things I’ve read by DocGKR and others in the area of “wound ballistics”, you get a small but effective boost in stopping effectiveness if the round you use can consistently create a larger hole.

If I ever did want to try another caliber, just to experiment, it would be the .357 sig. Because of the much higher velocity, you get some interesting capabilities (such as penetration and range) compared with other semiauto pistol calibers.

This is an opinion of many non LE shooters. However, I’ve noticed that it is just the opposite with many LE shooters(the good ones). I personally favor the .40 over 9mm, but I favor the .45 over the .40. I have been hard pressed to outshoot myself using 9mm over .40 in likely scenario, dynamic, and timed courses of fire. I think the best way to address my preference is as follows:

  1. The .40S&W is more snappy feeling than 9mm or .45: This depends on two primary factors…what load you are using, and what platform you are using. Naturally, the 155gr and 165gr loadings are quite a bit more snappy, but 180gr is rather mild in comparison and overall it is considered to be the superior performer. With 180gr you venture much closer to the slow push of the .45acp than the quick flip of the 127gr+P+ 9mm or .357sig. The second criterial is what platform you are using. Some pistols like Glocks have minor changes between the 9mm and .40 so that production is cheaper and the 9mm and .40 versions share a common holster. Other pistols that were designed from scratch to be .40s like the S&W 4006, Sig P229, and H&K USP .40 had more time and attention payed to the recoil effects of the .40 are are much more manageable pistols.

  2. With modern ammo the 9mm is just as good as the .40 at barrier penetration Sort of. The 9mm requires that you use bonded bullet technology in order to meet the FBI protocol penetration minimum through all commonly encountered barriers. The .40S&W on the other had will meet all the requirements in just about any JHP form. With bonded bullets, it will well exceed those minimum requirements. When it comes to shooting through auto glass, in police work we often end up shooting not just through one layer of auto glass(FBI protocols), but two layers of auto glass…I’ll take the .40 thankyou.

  3. With modern bullets the 9mm is just as good as the .40 in terminal effects The only real improvement in the modern day 9mm over what it was 20yrs ago is that it has more reliable penetration. Yes, ideal penetration is the most important criteria, but once you’ve got that covered the only way to improve on effects is to increase the size of the hole made by the bullet. A JHP has an expansion threshold…it will only expand to a certain point before its petals fold back and hug the bullet truck. A 9mm will never expand as far as a .40, and a .40 will never expand as far as a .45:

“Shot placement is obviously critical, and our test criteria presume that the shot is placed in the vital area of the body, which contains the brain, upper spinal cord, heart, and aorta/vena cava. This area runs from just above the eyes to the diaphragm, and is about 4” wide. But, as our experience in Miami amply illustrates, shot placement is only the first part of the equation. Jerry Dove placed his shot perfectly. Bullet performance is critical to translate shot placement into an effective, incapacitating wound. If shot placement was all that mattered, we could arm all Agents with .22’s. Secondly, perfect shot placement may be difficult to attain in the stress and dynamics of a shooting incident. The larger calibers offer a “margin of error” in that where a smaller bullet may just miss the aorta, for example, the larger one in the same placement will damage it. A good example is killing a 400lb pig with a .22, something commonly done on the farm. If the shot placement is exactly right, the pig is killed quickly. If it is off less than an inch, the pig goes wild and the process of killing it becomes rather lengthy and involved, whereas a larger caliber would succeed with a larger margin of miss than an inch."

Agent Urey Patrick from “10mm Notes” briefing: The complete 10mm notes briefing goes into detail on just how displeased the FBI was with the .38spl and the 9mm in shooting incidents.

…more from Patrick:
“Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.”

The other important aspect to consider in the 9mm and .40 comparison is damage to internal bone structure. That is reflected in the research done by Dr. Lane in 1993 and the follow up study done by the Canadians in 1994:

Here’s a post by Dr. Roberts:

“Don’t forget about the tests Dr. Lane presented at the FBI 1993 Wound Ballistics Seminar. Dr. Lane is an orthopedic surgeon, he and Ted Hollabaugh performed testing where swine femurs were inserted into 8.5” blocks of 10% gel and then were shot with 9 mm 115 gr JHP and 147 gr JHP loads, as well as .45 ACP 230 gr JHP projectiles. The high speed video of the experiment shots demonstrated that the .45 ACP shots created significantly more damage to the bone and were the only ones to penetrate all the way through the bone and gel block, while all the 9 mm loads were stopped by the bone and failed to penetrate through the bone. Dr. Lane also presented a variety of handgun wounds to human limbs that he had treated. The proceedings of the conference have been published by the FBI." Follow up research was done by the FBI in 1998 with the 180gr .40S&W which showed similar results to the .45acp in 1993.

I know of several OIS in which the officer was shot in the neck or mouth area and the 9mm HP was stopped by the spine. The officer was able continue fighting and lived. Had the bullet been a larger and heavier caliber, it is highly likely that officer would have had his spine broken and been helpless.

So, if we go back to the original point in which the 9mm is just as good as the .40 with modern bullet technology, that doesn’t hold water when you take into account IWBA and FBI research. As much as the 9mm has been improved over the years, the .40 has equally evolved with modern bullet technology. Any way you look at it, the .40 does better against commonly encountered barriers, it makes a larger hole, and it will damage internal bone structure better.

  1. The 9mm is much cheaper to shoot than .40 and in turn makes you a better adversary Somewhat true. Current market prices for brass cased FMJ training ammo in 9mm run for about $.20-$.25 a shot. The .40 runs for $.25-$.30 a shot. Not necessarily breaking the bank here.

  2. The .40S&W is harder on pistols than the 9mm or .45acp This was a reputation that was brought about by pistol manufacturers who simply retrofitted their existing 9mm platforms to shoot .40S&W in order to keep production costs low and to share a common holster. This of course led to reliability and durability problems with the .40s. Sig Sauer was one of the first companies to deviate from that trend by not converting the P228 to .40, but designed a whole new pistol in the P229. Once you design a pistol for the .40, it will have a similar lifespan to the 9mm. Many of our training P229s at FLETC have around 100k rounds through them and are still going strong. So have our H&K USP .40s. Agencies such as CHP also report an excess of 100k rounds through their S&W 4006, and APD ran their M&P .40s over 100k rounds too.

So, those are my main points in favor of the .40. My last observation is that those of us that spend excessive amounts of time at the gun range often lose touch with the terminal effects aspect of shooting. When we go through 20k rounds a year, our world becomes the art of becoming faster and more accurate shooters, and to that end we select equipment that maximizes those attributes and settle for a caliber that “theoretically” will get the job done. “It’s all about your shot placement”. We tend to forget that most of the time when the SHTF we are not at our best mentally or physically and achieving optimal shot placement is not realistic…particularly when our heart rate has jumped to almost 200bpm. As I mentioned earlier, larger calibers give you a larger margin of error if shot placement is not ideal. The total wound volume from 9mm to .40 to .45 is not a simple sum, it is an exponential increase in amount of tissue destruction based on the integral volume of a cylinder. The more time we spend at the calm, cool, and collected range, the more we mentially justify compromising our caliber in favor of speed, ammo costs, and other mundane things.

All that being said…I still like to carry 9mm a lot off duty :smiley: One of the best things about the .40 being popular with LE and not popular with the civilian market is that during this ammo crunch I can find just about any .40 ammo I want on the market in large quantities. Quality 9mm and .45 on the other hand is pretty hard to locate right now.

Thus, why .45 ACP is my chosen CCW. The above from HandGun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness via the FBI/DOJ? A must read doc by anyone who carries a gun, LE, civi, or otherwise.

Over the 9mm, but not over the .45 if I am reading you correctly.

Great info, thanx. :cool:

Galbra makes my point for me.
The firearm selected by shooters is often a factor in one’s opinion of caliber selection. The .40 is snappier in a lot of pistols, yes. Thats because one of the original .40 pistols (and the one I’d venture most people have experience with) is essentially a rebarrelled and rechambered 9mm.
On the civilian side, one has a choice of what type of firearm to bring to the fight, and that will have an effect on what caliber you like to shoot. For example, if you can carry a 1911 in .45, you can carry a pistol with a comfortable grip, and designed to control the recoil of the .45. So you get the proven .45ACP in a controllable package. You can also select from many other platofrom, some of which are designed to “tame” recoil. In this case, a .40 makes little sense. LE and .mil have to select sidearms under certain criteria. For example, I have to shoot a Glock in 9, .40, or .45. I can’t grip the G21 as well as the smaller frames, so I don’t shoot it as well. It was a trade off between better bullet performance and better handling and accuracy. No brainer. So its 9 or .40 for me, since I can actually grip them better. I like the .40 since I shoot it as well as the 9mm, but its a bigger round, with reportedly better intermediate barrier penetration, which is a factor.

Yes it is. :slight_smile:

Yes. Given that the particular platform is reliable, durable, and has an acceptible capacity for the application I prefer .45acp over the .40. In compact sized pistols(Sig P229 or H&K P2000) I generally prefer .40S&W though in a duty capacity. Recoil is a little too snappy though in subcompacts, which I tend to go 9mm as when I carry this sized pistol it is for strickly BUG or off duty capacity.

I like the energy and performance of the 40 but I don’t care to shoot it in compact pistols.

In small guns like a Kahr P40 or Glock 23 I found it to be very uncomfortable but in a gun like a Sig or M&P I don’t really notice much of a difference between 40 and 45.

I am a big fan of .40S&W. I think the difference is that most of my .40’s were designed around the cartridge, not 9mm’s that were “upgraded”. Not all upgraded 9mms are the same, some do a much better job than others.

In the house right now we have 5 .40S&W pistols between me and my wife, 2 P229’s, a DAO and a DAK, a Glock 27, an HK USPc, and an HK P2000SK. All are carry guns. I shoot 155gr JHP’s, the load is hot. I find that shooting that load in the subcompact G27 to be pretty close to uncomfortable in that platform. I put the G27 in the “upgraded 9” category. The 155gr out of the subcompact P2000SK, however, can be shot all day. The USPc is easier to shoot still with the larger frame and grip surface. Both HK’s were designed as .40’s first, 9mm’s second.

The SIG’s I find handle .40 very well. SIG used a different slide on the P229 .40 than on its P228 9mm predecessor so I don’t categorize them the same as other 9mm to .40 upgrades. The slide and spring do a good job of taming the .40.

Changing loads can make a huge difference in felt recoil. I find 180gr. to be so much different than shooting the 155gr. that it feels like shooting another caliber. 180gr. out of the P229 feels like a P228 shooting hot 9mm’s.

So do you find the lighter bullet to be snappier?

I agree. I have shot a ass load of .40, but I just have never warmed up to it. To be honest with you I don’t know why; it could be the recoil impulse, the fact I don’t reload for it, but I just don’t like it.

I have a G22 issued to me, but I don’t carry it, I carry a G30SF for plainclothes and my G17 is my “go-to” weapon.

I only own 9mm and .45 ACP guns. I don’t think I will ever purchase a .40.

Jon