NM - New Mexico will no longer recognize Utah CC permits. (Video)

General General Discussion
21

When CCW holders demonstrate that they are as much of a problem in everyday life as the 16 year olds are on the road, that might be a valid comparison.

Oh, and if that whole 2nd amendment thing was done away with too.

When states bring their training and proficiency requirements up high enough to convince other states that their CHL holders are safe, then reciprocity works, just like with drivers licenses.

Training and proficiency requirements are baloney.

Now before I get a lot of replies about God given rights and the 2nd Amendment, let me say that I and the law agree that anyone can drive, or carry concealed, ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY, without a license. But once you set out amongst the public, you need to show that you are safe, knowledgeable and mature enough to carry your gun, or drive your car.

My view on God given rights is that someone doesn’t lose their god-given right to self defense because they happen to step off the boundaries of their property.

After years of carrying, competing and training with firearms, I’m as sick of unsafe, immature and ignorant folks carrying firearms as I am of crappy drivers.

Nobody likes morons who improperly handle firearms…but you know what? CCW holders in general seem to do a pretty good job of not doing anything to stupid with their guns. Yes, there are some incidents folks can point to of “that guy” with a CCW license…but I can point to probably an equal or greater number of “that guy” incidents among law enforcement and military personnel.

It’s a fact of life that people will occasionally do dumb shit with firearms no matter how many hours of training they have or what they shot on the last Q course.

Of far greater concern is the propensity of governments to use any and all means at their disposal…including bureaucratic regulation and process…to keep decent people from having ready access to a useful means of self defense. A woman who just had the living shit beaten out of her by her boyfriend and who is in fear for her life shouldn’t have to sit through a waiting period to get a gun or have to spend the kind of money I’ve spent on training for the grand privilege of waiting for the king’s approval just to be able to defend herself because somebody gets the yuk face over the thought of “just anyone” being able to actually carry an effective means of self defense.

That’s. Bogus.

All the Bubba-in-Walmart stories a body can recite do not change that basic reality.

The federal flight deck officer’s program is a perfect example. It’s been run by an organization that has resisted it at any and all turns, making it difficult for anybody to meet the regs. So we can shoot down a plane taken over by terrorists with a clear conscience, but God forbid that the pilot has a handgun in the cockpit! SOMEBODY MIGHT GET HURT!!!

Histrionic predictions of doom and gloom have accompanied every attempt to liberalize carry laws and have never come true. Contrary to the predictions of the hysterical ninnies, there aren’t gunfights breaking out over fender benders, small children aren’t being gunned down in Wal-Mart because two CCW holders are exchanging gunfire over the last box of ho-hos…no blood running in the streets. In fact, it’s been rather serene and the people who end up being shot by CCW holders generally tend to be people who deserve a bullet.

The bottom line is this:

NM getting pissy about the Utah training requirements will do precisely ZERO to improve the safety or competency of people carrying guns in NM. Upping the training requirement will do absolutely NOTHING to guarantee that people will be safer or more competent in handling firearms. Those of us who have real training with a firearm know better than to believe this action will have any positive impact.

It will, however, complicate life for people who are just trying to defend themselves on a daily basis…and as such it’s unacceptable.

The more discretion left to government bureaucrats surrounding concealed carry, the more opportunity there will be for them to use that discretion to deny people what is a basic and fundamental right. That’s why shall-issue laws had to be passed in the first place, because governments took the attitude that you had better give them a damn good reason to want to have a gun…either that or be politically connected…or if you are in New York, be a cokehead celebrity DJ. This is another splendid example of why training requirements are baloney and why giving government any discretion in regulating concealed carry is a bad idea.

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thinking more about this, I am becoming more suspicious of the idea that DPS is doing this to make money for anyone. and I say this knowing the state, and quiet a few people in state government. I have two lines of logic here.

  1. It’s New Mexico, and quite frankly, anyone that’s creative enough to come up with this as a money maker is probably not in state government. There are many things I love about NM. but I’ve never known them to be this pro-active or creative at the state level.

  2. It’s DPS. Every time someone wants to get a promotion they have to show they’re Making A Difference. Someone’s probably looking to get a promotion, or keep a promotion so they started the review process. Sometimes they need a hobby in Santa Fe, and re-arranging standing policy happens.

whether or not NM has higher standards than UT, or UT isn’t a good program, or what ever, I don’t know. but this smells more like a busy body than an old boys favor. Typically graft and corruption in Santa Fe is no where near this sophisticated.

23

Finally, a thread that I can contribute to…

I took a course in Albuquerque in December 2009, had my paperwork filled out and notorized just after the new year, and turned in my paperwork at the DPS office on January 14th. The woman at the front counter quoted me “90 to 120 days” until I would receive my permit in the mail, and by all accounts from the local gun store jocks, this woman knows her shit… Color me surprised when I found a letter from DPS in my mailbox on February 6th with my permit inside. Probably just luck on my part, but most folks seem to be waiting around 60 days.

Concealed carry is allowed anywhere where alcohol is sold for off-site consumption… So no bars, no restaurants, no diners, et cetera, as those locations sell alcohol for on-site consumption. As it was noted above by another poster above, we’ll have restaurant carry as of July 1st, but I think SB40 only covers restaurants that serve beer and wine and garner at least 60% of their revenue from food sales, so places like Applebee’s and Chili’s are still off-limits because they sell liquor.

:rolleyes: … Babysteps, I guess.

They must have upped the requirement at some point to 25 total rounds fired, but otherwise spot-on to what I did in December: 15 rounds at 3-yards, 10 rounds at 7-yards. After some digging, it’s outlined in 10.8.2.15 Section B, so maybe it’s a late 2005 revision? The target is 12" wide by 18" tall and each round landed within the target is worth four points. A score of 72% (18 rounds) must be achieved to meet the qualifications. I’ve heard it referred to as the “Stevie Wonder” test… Can’t imagine why, though.

I think that this would be a good compromise for something like national CCW reciprocity… Realistically, we’d need the prissy states like California and New York to be on board, so reasonable concessions would probably have to be made to their support, since most states aren’t ready to remove permitting entirely. I don’t think something like a $35 fee and 30-day background check are too unreasonable, but that’s my subjective opinion.

No intention of dragging this thread off-track, so perhaps that’s best discussed in the other thread.

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The 2 don’t work very well as a comparison.

Why not? Both activities are legal without permits on private property, both are regulated by the state as to age limits, training proficiency, both require users to be responsible, judicious and skilled to be safe.

Reading books, putting on make up, texting, stuffing a burger down your throat etc. really shows how well that needing a drivers license has worked out. Look at Vermont, Alaska and soon to be Arizona and show me proof that training requirements help anything.

Vermont and Alaska, again.

Sorry, I thought that this thread was about state to state reciprocity. Lets look at what other states honor Vermont, Alaska and Arizona non-permit CHL carry.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/
What other states honor Vermont? Not a single one.
What other states honor Alaska without the Alaskan CHL that requires testing? Not a one. Alaska specifically provides a State CHL to folks wanting one for reciprocity with other states.
What other states will honor AZ’s permitless concealed carry? It’s too soon to know but I suspect the same number as for Vermont and Alaska.

If you live in a state that requires little or no testing for CHL, good for you. Carry and defend yourself to your heart’s content. But don’t get butthurt when other states don’t give CHL reciprocity to your state or a third state with lower proficiency standards.

I have no vested monetary interest in folks getting CHL permits. I don’t teach the Texas State CHL class.

Gringop

25

Where did the “6 months” come from? My last NM renewal came through in 6 or 7 weeks. NM’s CCW law is fairly new and slowly improving, and considerably better than no CCW about 6+ years ago.

Legal carry in restaurants, etc., where beer and wine is served (but not hard liquor) starts July 1.

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NM continues to recognize the same states it did before Friday, 4/23, except UT. Reciprocity is being reviewed with other states and may actually improve. At this time, other than TX, NM does not have a reciprocal agreement with any other state but is in the process of converting states currently honored, to agreements.

For the record, there is significant rhetoric on numerous forums claiming this is about the money, about NM instructors whining about losing business to UT instructors and all kinds of crap. Crap is exactly what that is. It’s not about money. The DPS CCU spends $81 per original license and $67 per renewal for the clearances and other associated fees to print and mail the licenses - hardly a moneymaker. Comments that NM wants to “sell non-resident permits” are also crap. NM does not offer non-resident permits now, and it is HIGHLY unlikely that NM ever will. I have never heard one word from any NM instructor that UT certified instructors were undercutting them.

This is about the NM Statute. If a state does not meet the requirements of our Statute, it does not qualify for honors. Utah does not now, nor have they ever had a handgun proficiency/competence requirement in their training. Some have claimed that their instructor required them to shoot a live fire exercise - good for them, they did what they should have. However it is not a requirement in the UT Statutes.

I am the person that compiled the original list of states for DPS, that met our Statute of “substantially similar” in the requirement for reciprocity. Utah was NEVER on that list - it was added to the list by someone at DPS IN ERROR. DPS has corrected that error. DPS has requested an up-to-date list. That list has been compiled and they now have it - I have re-verified that data. It includes recent changes to other states Statutes [NE and KS] that now qualify them for honors/reciprocity with NM. Whether DPS secures agreements with those states is up to DPS and that state, but they do have the data and the authority to make those agreements, they are re-visiting those honors/agreements.

The bottom line here is pretty simple. The statute is crystal clear in it’s requirements. Meet them, you’re on the list - don’t meet them, you’re off the list.

Lastly, firearms laws are very difficult to pass in NM. Changes are slowly being made, one small step at a time. four, you are correct that I told you some time back that incrementalism works here. The latest change - SB40, the alcohol bill allowing concealed carry licensees to now carry in 640 restaurants that sell beer and wine - is a perfect example of that. [b]Go here[/b] to find out how to know where you will be able to carry after July 1. We were able to convince Gov. Richardson to send a message to the Senate to make SB 40 germane to the short - fiscal only - session in 2010. We got that bill passed and signed into law through significant negotiation, which forced me to kill another bill I was pushing that also improved our Statute. It’s a slow, careful balancing act folks - but incrementalism works.

I hope this helps you all to better understand why NM DPS took the action they did - and puts the crap to rest.

Shootest - the 6 mos comes from the worst case scenerio when clearences are slow to be returned to the CCU for original licenses, a new clerk not having correct information regarding renewals, and due to backlogs at the FBI or other unforseen problems that come up with original licenses. Four to six weeks is the real world average. However, some have taken longer to process.

Steve Aikens
Founder, www.handgunlaw.us
Clovis, NM

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Mine took about a month.