Iraqguns,
Thank you for the reply.
I was getting very nervous. I need to do my own homework and should not have to ask such silly q’s online.
Your friend is confusing several issues. The ATF can inspect an FFL during business hours and some FFL’s work from a home location so they could search home to assure general ATF compliance.
Regarding a Person / Trust. They can ask you for paperwork to prove the legality of your having an SBR for instance, but they can’t search you or your home without proper warrants or other court orders. You don’t give up rights owning NFA items. You simply agree to be taxed for them and agree to show proof of having paid that tax if asked to do so. Person or Trust… same thing.
There used to be an idiot on this site who INSISTED that the SBR didn’t “exist” until the form was approved.
And that those of us who added the SBR to sch A before approval were doing it wrong.
NFA Nazi experts are more annoying than fucking liberals. :rolleyes:
Same here. I got my stamps back without any problems by only listing the specific item. Nowhere in my trust said anything about a schedule A.
Do I still need to make one?
It’s possible although it would be atypical that your Trust is self contained. This would require that your firearm be listed in the body of the Trust and described as a Trust asset.
That’s what Schedule A is… The Schedule of Assets. Without assets, the Trust is basically useless. I don’t know if an empty trust is a legal entity or not. I think one o the aspects that make it legal is that it contains something… even a dollar. Many legal instruments are that way.
But about your specific Trust. As you read it, certainly there is some mention of what the Trust holds or is intending to hold? I mean it’s sort of like you bought a really expensive safe and never put anything in it. Legal or not, it just makes no sense to do so.
It’s also going to be a pain adding to your Trust if it doesn’t reference a schedule of assets.
Right Way:
–“This Trust will hold items found in schedule A. Schedule A may be altered as the trustee sees fit.”
Wrong Way: “This trust is for gun number 1.” Cumbersome to alter but not impossible.
Your Way: Devoid of any comment that mentions what the trust owns… ??
Forget for a minute that you have a tax stamp. Forget all the form 1, 4 or whatever. Read your trust. Does it mention by any means what the trust contains. It needs to. I can’t imagine how you got one that didn’t. Usually it is mentioned by simply saying this trust contains everything listed in Schedule A.
I have not made a schedule A. The way my trust is drafted does not require one. i have an assignment page that is filed with my form 4(s) and i keep a copy for my records along with documentation showing the transfer of my personsl funds to the trust–all very easy. There are different trust designs just like there are different designs to say an LLC. The important thing is that it is valid in the respective jurisdiction to do what you need done.
the law governing trusts, including trust requirements and design, is generally state law and will differ to varying degrees from state to state law. That’s why I wanted did a fairly thorough look for attys with a specific expertise in trust and NFA law. It’s easier to find someone with the former than the latter. While i am an atty, i specialize in one narrow area of law–not in trust or NFA law–so this is by no means legal advice. I’m sure I spent a couple hundred more but I wanted to make sure it was done right and that it could fit into a larger estate plan.
In regards to doing a Form 1 to make an SBR, the BATFE is authorizing the manufacturing entity to make the SBR.
With a stripped lower, when using a trust, the trust is the entity manufacturing the SBR, and therefore the SBR must be on listed in the assets of the trust after the trust receives the approved Form 1, or else the trust doesn’t ‘own’ the item.
However, as the GRANTOR of the trust, you can assign ownership of a stripped lower, or any other item that you legally own, into the trust, regardless of NFA status. If you have a handgun that you want to assign to the trust, you can.
In the case of a Form 4, the BATFE is approving the TRANSFER of the item to the Trust, and therefore the Trust doesn’t ‘own’ the item at the time you send in the Form 4, and therefore, it shouldn’t be listed as a asset, because it isn’t until the BATFE has approved the transfer.
Does the BAFTE kick back forms that have a Form 4 item listed prior to approval? Not always, as in IQ’s case with his can.
However, that doesn’t mean that it can’t be, or shouldn’t be.
Once again, the person doing the paperwork to be sent in has to decide which way to go, and the inspector at the BATFE may or may not agree with the way you did it.
In most cases of minor paperwork issues, the BATFE is pretty good about about explaining what they want/need, and you don’t usually have to wait long to get your approval once the corrections are made.
Dana Pickles contacted me, by phone, about my trust when I sent in my first set of papers, and told me that I needed to ‘fund’ the trust with some item. He gave me his fax number, and told me that as soon as he got the fax with the corrected info, he would approve my paperwork and mail it, which he did.
Of course, this discussion is limited only to firearms, and not to titled property, such as vehicles and real estate.
Agreed with both above. I think what people need to be clear on is that the Trust must in some fashion speak about the item as being present. Either in Sched. A or as some other defined list or in narrative form for a FORM 1 item.
FORM 4 item should NOT be present during application process but Trust should not be empty. Fund it with $10 to assure it is indeed “active” and able to receive the tax stamp.
Also it sounds like sending the ATF a short note explaining why the Form 1 - Title I item appears in the Trust while it awaits approval might be in order.
No matter what though, people should know how it’s supposed to work. Even if the ATF does it both ways. At the end of the day when it’s all said and done, you want your papers in order and be able to explain how and why they function.