Do you add the SBR to you schedule A before submitting papers or after you get them back? I have heard both sides, which is correct?
Is this a Form 4 or a Form 1 SBR deal?
Form 1
Doesn’t matter if you assign it to the trust before or after, as you have possession of the firearm when you submit the Form 1.
If it was a Form 4, you cannot add it until the transfer is approved because you do not have legal possession until after the transfer is approved.
FWIW- we added my can(s) to the trust (Form 4) when it purchased them and sent the paperwork in and it was approved as simple as that.
Does it have to be typed in like the trust or can I handwrite it?
I typed mine. It’s actually really easy. You simply find out what font was used for the trust and the font size and then go into Microsoft Word and create a new Schedule A and add the item. Then print it out and put it with the rest of the docs.
I don’t understand why they would approve that. It seems to me the Trust should hold the non-NFA item so that the ATF can then issue the Trust the stamp which allows the Trust to convert it to a NFA item.
It’s certainly a gray area but if “You” hold the non-NFA item(not listed in Trust) and they approve the item for the Trust, if “You” happen to do the conversion prior to updating the Sched. A and are then incapacitated for any reason, then “You” will be in possession of a non-NFA item and the Trust will have a tax stamp for something it doesn’t own.
I think the way to go is like that link I posted. Write in a generic item in the Schedule A that is suited to non-NFA as the docs are submitted and also later suited to NFA status.
SCHED. A
Maker Name | Serial Number | AR-15
That description shows that Trust owns the gun in it’s non-NFA state. It will also be suitable as it becomes the NFA item when the stamp is delivered…and … it is suited to the Trust owning it should it need to be removed from NFA status in the future.
I think people should at the very least understand the separation of “You” or “Me” or “I” and ---- “TRUST”. I’m not convinced everyone does.
Granted, no one would likely ever get called on it, and maybe even the ATF let’s it slide, but people should understand the concept.
Maybe I’m wrong but that’s how I see it. I think that guy did a really good job of that outline. I’m not sure about his measuring the overall length with stock extended. I thought it was supposed to be collapsed, but in fairness he had not foot noted that yet.
People are once again thinking too hard.
@IG… I agree with you on the constructive intent over thinking. The normal and logical concept of purchasing a 12" upper without an SBR qualified lower for it. Having that upper does not constitute CI and people over think that through fear of ATF.
Over thinking and knowing the document you are dealing with are not the same. I’m not saying the ATF is going to come after you either way. I’m just saying it’s not that much to sit down to learn proper and have a little peace of mind about what you are doing.
I believe you have even said people should research and learn this. It’s just that most legal documents typically have a set of rules and steps associated with them to complete a certain process. Most people don’t know them, but they are usually not hard to learn and typically follow a logical defined pattern.
I find this “just put x in the box and run with it” is no different than telling people to “just go pull the trigger and have fun”. All I’m saying is learn the concepts and methodology then the questions will go away and people will know they are doing right. Not out of fear of the ATF but rather to simply have the knowledge and peace of mind.
I guess I was expressing myself wrong. I used a trust because in addition to making the process easier, if for some reason I am gone, dead or dying the other trustee (my wife) can still take possession of that item. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying, to be honest my head has been spinning lately with stuff I am reading.
In any case, my trust has been used several times, and I always put the item in the Schedule A BEFORE it was approved and sent it out and they always came back approved.
Yes, I agree with what you did. That’s how I would do it and from everything I have read and understand is the proper means by which the trust actually functions legally.
BEFORE = correct
AFTER = incorrect ( potentially creating an illegal situation or rejection by ATF depending on person reviewing it.)
So you have heard it from both sides. Therefore you do not have a definitive answer. However, I recently asked an ATF agent when I called the NFA Branch and they said that technically you cannot put the NFA item in the schedule A because then at the point, it is in the possession of the trust which the ATF has not approved the transfer thereto. While it may have worked for some, it is not worth the time and delay if you do it and then it gets denied. IG for example may have gotten lucky a few times with perhaps a lazy ATF agent. I suggest you call the ATF and just ask them. They are not going to bite your head off. The phone will be answered in person by an ATF agent directly:
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
National Firearms Act Branch
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405 USA
Voice (304) 616-4500
Fax (304) 616-4501
No need to call. I don’t get wrapped up in minutia. Also, as we have seen numerous times you can call someone and even send a letter and get different answers to the same question. Placing an item in the trust is not tantamount go possession because the possession only takes place upon approval. All you are doing is declaring your intention.
I see no reason the receiver (assuming this is an AR) couldn’t be on the Schedule A as a Title I firearm, and then update it after receiving the stamp.
This would explain why people would think before AND after are both the right answer, at least to me. Your trust can legally hold all sorts of things, and frankly I’m a bit confused why the ATF wouldn’t want you to list as in there (even on form 4’s) with a note that it is pending NFA process.
The attorney I selected to prepare a trust instructed me to submit the assignment page and only list the specific item(s) with the attendant form 4(s). I’ve done more than 10 filings since early 09 with no problems and no delays. I’ve typed and written in the blanks on assignment page – both were fine.
I am not a lawyer nor giving legal advice. I am stating my opinion as to how I understand the legal aspects of an NFA Trust.
Regarding the advice you got from ATF. That is why the link I posted above clearly states that you list the “Non-NFA” receiver. This shows that the TRUST possesses the Title I item and that the TRUST is applying to have that Title I item converted to TITLE II status. Once the stamp is issued it becomes Title II and the item listed in Schedule A becomes a TITLE II item. No need to change anything or do anything more. It’s a legal transformation.
BEFORE method
YOU(as individual) - not in possession of anything or involved in any manner.
TRUST
—Form 1 - Specific info on upper and lower
—Sched. A – DD, BMC, Colt, etc - Ser. No. 1111111 AR-15
You send that in and you are sending data on a TITLE 1 firearm that the TRUST wants converted to TITLE II. ATF says … ok, looks cool, here’s your stamp. That TITLE I firearm -legally- converts to a TITLE II firearm and nothing more needs to be done. All the descriptive elements in Form 1 and Schedule A are still valid. A legal transformation has taken place which was the intended purpose. Case closed. As Trustee of a legal Title II Trust just go shoot. The TRUST used to own a Title I firearm and now it owns a Title II firearm.
AFTER method
YOU - Are in possession of a Title 1 Lower ( legally )
TRUST - In possession of NOTHING ( or $10 to make it a legal Trust )
—Form 1 - has specific data that matches a lower(firearm) that YOU (as an individual, not the Trust) own and possess.
—Schedule A - Blank( there actually is no trust without something in it, but that’s a side issue )
TRUST applies to ATF to have a specific lower converted to a Title II firearm. --Even though the Trust doesn’t own or possess it.-- The ATF for reasons I don’t understand issue a stamp for said item. At that instant that lower becomes a TITLE II firearm.
{ The only reason I can think of as to why they would issue the stamp with no Sched. A listing is for the simple reason that the TRUST could in fact go purchase it from a dealer as the ATF is not there to advise on wisdom but simply to assure it is legally possible. IOW, a TILE II dealer could in fact be holding the firearm in title I state and as it converts to Title II they -could- still legally transfer it to TRUST or even hold it for TRUST . A bit convoluted but legal ( I think ) as far as the ATF is concerned. OR… the ATF just doesn’t understand what they are doing which is a possibility… I’m leaning to the latter as I see the former quite a gray area technically}
At any rate take a close look at that firearm now in the AFTER method. What needs to be done now?
YOU (not the TRUST ) own and possess a Title II firearm. - That’s illegal
YOU ( as individual ) need to transfer that Title II firearm to the TRUST - that’s illegal too.
You as -Trustee- ( not the YOU individual ) have not performed your proper fiduciary duties to the TRUST (because the -individual YOU- owns and possess Title II items that the TRUST should own. - and that’s probably illegal too.
Technically speaking, I believe you could be arrested at this point.
It’s like getting married or having a birthday. Legally things happen in the blink of an eye. One instant something is -legally- one thing and the next instant it is -legally- another.
Now would the ATF ever catch you or even want to. Probably not, because again in the moment of these actions the intent is clear. When you apply, they read the docs and know what your intent is. If something happened to you though between the time you apply and the time you add that item to the TRUST ( even if doing so is technically illegal ) there could be a problem for someone else associated with the Trust.
The only reason this all seems a bit nit-picky is because of the regulations regarding the transfer and ownership of firearms in general and especially Title II items. It sounds like to me the ATF agent that advised you does not fully understand the separation of YOU and the TRUST.
Again this is just my understanding ( or misunderstanding ) but I think the advice you got was faulty in context of the typical individuals NFA application.
A buddy of mine was saying last night in the pub that if you go the NFA tax stamp route, that gives the law the right to enter your house and search your home without permission.
If you go the trust route they must have permission as normal.
Can anybody here reiterate on that please.
Thanks.
Tell him he is full of shit. You retain all the same constitutional protections regardless of how they were purchased.