NFA License

General Firearms NFA
1

Not an NFA firearm owner, so I don’t know much about this, but has anyone ever proposed/considered/discussed the idea of getting the NFA laws modified so that instead of having to do a complete background check on someone every time they buy a new NFA item, they could do a background check once, or once every 5/10/15/whatever years (that part could be discussed) and then all you would have to do just keep adding items to your “roster” or whatever you’d call it when you buy new ones. Call it an “NFA Clearance” or something like that.

They could still charge the same $200 tax stamp for each item, so the ATF would be getting the same revenue (probably a lot more actually), but for a lot less work. I bet for that reason alone you’d get support from them (NFA branch anyway. Bureaucracies love getting more money for less work).

I wonder if this could be changed administratively or would it actually take legislation? If it could be done administratively and were handled properly I bet NFA Branch would like it. Or maybe not. I don’t know what I’m talking about, but I have found myself wondering. One of the biggest reasons I haven’t gotten into the NFA weapons thing is just the hassle. The waiting. The uncertainty. But if I had to go through that just once and new that I could then buy SBRs, Silencers, etc to my hearts content I think I (and possibly a great many more people) would jump on the badwagon. The new Sig MCX and its myriad possibilities has me seriously considering it in any case. I wonder if the various manufacturers of NFA items could/would band together to find a way to quietly make such a change without arousing too much attention.

Of course, if it requires any sort of legislation it will be blocked by Anti 2As in conrgress, but. but. but… again, if it were handled properly and changed quietly either as part of a larger deal or something like that it just might be possible. And I think everyone would agree it would be worthwhile.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble and I am sure I am about to be told myriad reasons, all well thought out and long hashed over, why it wouldn’t work or couldn’t ever happen. But it’d sure be an improvement over the current Bureaucratic PITA.

Fire away.

2

The only thing dumber than the NFA is being deterred from owning NFA items because of its existence. We all know the NFA should be scrapped, but it’s the law of the land and this guy you may have heard of named Barrack H. Obama wants to make it harder not easier to obtain any firearm or ammo, let alone NFA stuff.

Set up a gun trust, that’s what 95%+ of us do, makes life a lot easier.

3

But even with a gun trust, you have to go through the entire background check process every time you buy a new item, correct? So it doesn’t really shorten your wait time? I’m just trying to figure out a way around that.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that under current circumstances probably nothing like that is possible, unless it can be done administratively, possibly originating at NFA Branch. Might be worth looking into.

Also, again don’t misundertand me. Philosophically I agree with you. The NFA laws are about as absurd a piece of legislation as has ever come out of Congress (and that’s saying a lot), but for now I am just talking low level strategy to try to make things easier for the time being.

4

We could just put in a request to change the National Firearms Act. Congress and BATFE have always been pretty responsive to those kinds of requests.

5

Well, in a manner of speaking yes. It could be a lobbying effort maybe. Find something someone wants to trade off on. Or, again, see if it can be changed by regulatory action. Again, less work for a bureaucrat can lead to all kinds of things. I hear they don’t like working a lot.

6

Never going to happen, for the same reasons they do a NIC check on you every time. Who is to say you didn’t start a life of crime since your prior check?

7

Matt, the only way to do what you’re proposing is to get an Class III FFL

8

So if someone has an NFA item and then get convicted of something, does the system somehow tell NFA this? Do they NFA items get confiscated or something?

9

Your proposal would require a rewrite of the NFA by Congress. If there were enough pro-gun people in Congress to pass an NFA reform bill and there were a willing President to sign it, that would be a pretty weak reform. We could do a lot better, even if it wasn’t a complete repeal of the NFA. IMO, a better solution is to try to incrementally remove certain firearms from the NFA. Silencers are probably the best to try first.

Also, the ATF doesn’t get the revenue from NFA taxes. It goes into the general fund. The ATF gets whatever Congress allocates to them in the budget.

10

It’s illegal for someone convicted of a felony to be in possession of ANY firearms. Do they confiscate non-NFA guns?

11

Like hkguns said, all that needs to happen is somebody gets a stamp, then goes and commits a felony, then wants something else.

I don’t know if anybody is “notified” of a conviction at that level. Here in VA, they revoke ccws for convictions or disqualifying events, but that’s state level.
Guess it’s possible, but not sure how many felony investigations don’t result at some point of your residence being searched, which would find firearms, and later they would just order them removed or take them.
We did have a fellow who used to come in and ended up in some kind of trouble from Neighbors that ended his ability to have guns. He said he had to get rid of the ones he had, but gave no further details. We don’t see him anymore, so I can’t ask.

Getting a stamp on a trust, they check the trust, and the person taking possession has to do a nics check.

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12

the person taking possession has to do a nics check.

Sent from my C6916 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Just a regular check like if you were buying a Non-NFA firearm?

13

Just a regular check like if you were buying a Non-NFA firearm?[/QUOTE]

Most people file a form 1 for existing lowers (we’re assuming AR-15 here) to SBR the lower, no background check for that, you are already in possession of the lower. If you form 4 a factory SBR you are required to get the NICS. If you buy a suppressor, I believe the NICS is not required (some controversy on this topic), however most class 3 FFLs including the one I use do the NICS (probably to cover their ass).

14

Most people file a form 1 for existing lowers (we’re assuming AR-15 here) to SBR the lower, no background check for that, you are already in possession of the lower. If you form 4 a factory SBR you are required to get the NICS. If you buy a suppressor, I believe the NICS is not required (some controversy on this topic), however most class 3 FFLs including the one I use do the NICS (probably to cover their ass).[/QUOTE]

But each new NFA item, whether it’s a trust or not, you still have to go through the entire process again, taking months, correct? There’s no way around that besides, as someone suggested becoming a Class III dealer, right?

15

Correct, each item is a new wait… And there are a bunch of NFA forms, for non class 3 dealers we mainly deal with form 1 & 4s (form 1 is to build an SBR or suppressor, form 4 is to purchase one), dealer to dealer transfers go on form 3s so even with a class 3 you’d still need to wait for the form 3 to be approved (anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 months). I also have no idea if you need a new background check when you pick your item up if you do the CLEO route, it would be redundant but I wouldn’t be surprised (shows how asinine the NFA is).

Keep in mind you have to show the Batfe You are a legitimate business to make money & pay a yearly tax to be a class 3 dealer, that is the biggest sticking point for many, it has to be a legitimate business. The great thing about being a class 3 dealer is you can have post sample toys (full auto) with a demo letter if you can get one from a local PD, you can also keep the suppressors and SBRs you have still in stock without paying the $200 stamp if/when you close your class 3 business but you need to transfer your full auto post sample toys away.

16

Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate your taking the time. I really don’t understand much about how the process works.

My original question was probably a stupid one, but maybe not entirely so. Making laws in this country is a lot like making sausages. I am wondering if it might not be worth the industry in general making a low level, behind the scenes lobbying effort to change that one aspect of the law. It could literally be a 1 page amendment. It would have to be a behind the scenes trade that the right lobbyist would be on the lookout for in exchange for some other, completely unrelated vote. This is something I do know a little bit about and it happens all the time. It’s just a matter of paying the right lobbyist.

All the NFA manufacturers out there together, by forming a lobbying group and donating money, could probably afford to do it. It might just pay for itself in increased sales down the road. Maybe. Or maybe that’s the dumbest idea I’ve had in weeks. I don’t know.

17

You’re talking about opening a can of worms that you don’t want opened. One group tried sticking their nose where it didn’t belong with the BATF and it almost backfired badly (and still isn’t dead yet).

Next thing you have to understand is the intent of the National Firearms Act. People don’t want us to have these items. And Congress isn’t about to abolish or change NFA laws for the better. Especially since it keeps people employed and brings in money in multiple ways.

18

Like Iraqgunz said, the whole process was to make owning these types of firearms so onerous that people would just skip it. You may not think $200 for permission is a big deal, but remember, this started in 1934, $200 was a much larger amount then.

As far as trustees having to do a nics check, it is only for f4s, but it is for everything, even suppressors. This requirement is in the Nfa handbook, but it was put there by mistake, and not actually required.
However, with all this recent scrutiny over trusts and felons bypassing law, Dakota silencers wrote a letter to atf. Guess what, now you are required to go through a nics check if you are a trustee picking up on a f4.
Prime and recent example of how writing a letter can work.

As far as “class Iii” licenses go, truly, there is no such thing. It has just become commonplace to call it that.
To deal (buy and sell) in Nfa weapons, you need either a type 01 or 02 ffl, and then attach an sot (special occupational tax) to it. The difference in these two ffls is one is licensed to do pawn broking, the other is not.
To manufacture Nfa weapons, you need a type 07 ffl with an attached sot.
While the ffl is renewed every 3yrs, the sot is renewed yearly. It is a stepped fee, and the minimum is $500.
As an 07 sot, you can manufacture post 86 sample machine guns. However, the ffl owns them, you do not. Post samples can only be owned by a small group. The federal government, le agencies, firearm manufacturers (07s with sots), and regular ffls with sots who have acquired a demo letter from an le agency. For regular ffls, each post sample requires a specific demo letter for that sample, as it lists exactly what they are getting. If the ffl is shut down, any post samples must go to one of these groups, be destroyed in a manner suitable to atf, or turned over to atf.
The form 1 is for non ffls (everyday citizens or other legal entities) to make and register an Nfa weapon.
The form 2 is used by 07s to register weapons they make.
The form 3 is used for transfers between sot holders, or other tax free transfers.
The form 4 is used for taxed transfers, such as from an sot to a non sot, or from a non sot to an sot.
The form 5 is to register a temporary movement of an Nfa item across state lines (required for all but suppressors).
The form 6, iirc, is an import/export form.

Hopefully, this clears a few things.

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19

This…exactly. Just let the sleeping dog sleep soundly.

20

I actually believe that within a decade the gun lobby will be in a position to go after the low hanging fruits from the NFA, SBRs and Suppressors.

The popularity of these items has exploded in the last decade. Returning vets and Call of Duty playing 20-somethings are changing what the American firearms owner looks like and buys. It is no longer grandpa and his 30-06 deer gun.

This isn’t slowing down and the more of these out there the less scary they seem. The class 3 community is becoming more politically savvy. The American Suppressor Association has been working with the NRA and putting on suppressor shoots for state legislatures around the country.

I think changing portions of the NFA is the way to go at the present time. Changing the structure entirely or scrapping it altogether are great ideas but not practical and, as some have said, could galvanize the antis.