I will be doing a Form 1 and submitting with a new NFA Trust. The Trust includes a “Schedule A” for listing assets. In this case my first asset is the setup of a checking account and funds.
When sending in the paperwork the first time, do I also list the manufactured firearm on Schedule A as an asset of the Trust, or is it added after the tax stamp is received?
I’ve read both a) leave it off or b) add it with a note transfer in process or something to that effect.
Assuming the manufactured firearm you have is presently not an NFA item and you are making into one, I would go with transfering the item to the trust and listing it on Schedule A as a non-NFA item. Then, have the trust submit the Form 1 to register the presently non-NFA item that the trust owns as an NFA item.
Otherwise, you own the non-NFA item as an individual. If you submit the Form 1 as an individual, you pay the $200 tax to register the item. Then, you have to transfer the now NFA item to the trust, which is another $200 and a Form 4.
I just scribble it in on the schedule A, and send it in with a check from my personal checking account.
That’s worked for me for several thousand dollars worth of tax stamps now.
If you are making an item that you already own into an NFA item, then you would list it (i.e. if you are SBRing a lower you already have).
If you are purchasing an NFA item (i.e. a supressor) then you do not list it until you receive your stamp.
*As understand it. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.
I think y’all are over thinking this.
My above comment was in reference to both form 4s, and form 1s.
So you are saying you transfer NFA registered items between different owners without ATF approval?
In my particular case, it is a Colt M4 Carbine marked lower I currently own, adding a 6933 11.5 inch upper. I don’t want to put Colt 6933 on the Trust Schedule A since it is presently not in that configuration.
It seems there are conflicting points of view as to if I should list the lower on Schedule A as part of the initial submission. If ATF looks at this closely, I would think the lower I want SBR’d should be listed on the Trust. Keep in mind this is a brand new Trust with a first SBR submission.
My lawyer told me to not list a firearm/lower on the schedule until the trust is accepted by the ATF. I just mailed off my first foray into NFA to SBR a lower so we’ll see what happens. YMMV!
I don’t see anywhere that he said that.
See OP- it can go either way.
No.
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Then you didn’t read the threads. In the first post he said he just scribbles the item on Schedule A, i.e., a transfer of ownership.
He said he does this for Form 4 and Form 1. So, Form 4 would used to transfer an NFA item. However, he already transferred it by scribbling it on the Schedule A. If he then submits the Form 4, that implies the transfer was completed before ATF approval.
I believe this is correct and is the way I did it.
When I sent in my forms to the BATFE, Form 1’s for my two SBR’s or Form 4’s for my four suppressors, I added the items description and serial number to my schedule A, made a copy of my trust, and sent the copy of the trust with my Forms and a $200 check or money order. Never had a problem with any of the transfers. Right or Wrong this is how both of my dealers advised me to do it and how’ve I’ve done it.
Initial submission of the new trust for what? Initial submission to purchase a suppressor that has nothing to do with the lower? Or initial submission to SBR the lower? If the initial submission has nothing to do with the lower, then it does not matter whether the lower is on the Schedule A or not.
Right now, you have a lower that can either be held individually or in trust. There are pros and cons of each. And, until the lower becomes an NFA item, transfers in/out of trust are minor issues.
When you want to SBR the lower and you ultimately want to hold the SBR’d lower in trust, you should first transfer the non-SBR lower to the trust. Then, the trust submits the Form 1 to register the lower as an SBR. That is one regulated transaction with one $200 tax and waiting period.
You could SBR the lower as an individual with a Form 1, $200 tax, fingerprints, CLEO sign off, and wait; and then transfer the now SBR’d lower via Form 4 and $200 more and another wait to the trust. But, that is twice the expense and twice the delay that can otherwise be avoided. Also, one reason to acquire NFA items in trust is to bypass the CLEO, prints, etc.
If you are going the route of one NFA transaction, the lower needs to be in trust via Schedule A when the Form 1 is submitted.
A separate but related issue is owning a short upper without an SBR lower to go with it. It raises the constructive possession issue. Practically speaking, probably no consequence. However, best practices would suggest completing the SBR transaction first and then acquiring the short upper.
But right or wrong is the question. And, does one way or the other create criminal liability? Or, it is actually irrelevant?
For Form 1 transactions, the non-NFA item should be on the Schedule A in the trust before submitting the Form 1.
For Form 4 transactions, the NFA item to be acquired should not be on the Schedule A until the tax stamp is returned from ATF.
From the NFA Handbook, “Section 9.1 Definition of “transfer.” The term “transfer” is broadly defined by the NFA to include “selling, assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning, giving away, or otherwise disposing of” an NFA firearm. The lawful transfer of an NFA firearm generally requires the filing of an appropriate transfer form with ATF, payment of any transfer tax imposed, approval of the form by ATF, and registration of the firearm to the transferee in the NFRTR. Approval must be obtained before a transfer may be made.”
So what you’re saying is, you don’t want to put it on the schedule A until after you get the stamp back… but that would be a change of ownership, and require another transfer.
Why not just send the ATF $400, and a new set of forms for your second transfer when you send in your first set of forms? It might save a few months of waiting… Unless it was out of state transfer, and you’d have to pay $200 to transfer to the first SOT, $200 to transfer to you, and then another $200 after you put it on your schedule A.
:suicide:
Depending on how a trust is setup, nothing other than the original “funding” item needs to be on the Schedule A from what I’ve learned. Each trust is different but the ones that are really well thought out don’t require the schedule a to be updated. You update the new items in a trust via a separate document that is not sent to the NFA each time. YMMV
The last time my dealer spoke with an examiner he said it didn’t matter if it was added before or after the forms were approved. I’m not sure when that was or which examiner as I’ve had 3 different examiners for my items. Somebody should write a letter or at least call so we’ll all know.
This site has officially reached maximum ARFcom Fucktardery. :blink: