New Member, Conceptual AR, Many Questions.

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

Howdy folks,

You all have a great forum here with knowledgable SMEs. Hope I can learn a lot. I’m planning out a rifle and wanted your input on components. It starts with a Knights and expands from there.

KAC SR-15 E3 Carbine MOD 2 14.5" (love the bolt/internals and documented round counts exceeding 20,000 rounds with no cleaning)
Black Hills 77 gr. TMK (.420 BC, SMK descendent)

Lancer L5 AWMs
Magpul UBR stock
Magpul MOE-SL grip
KDG MREX-AR MLOK rail (looks ergonomic and comfortable)

Aimpoint Micro T-2
KDG SIDELOK mount
Leupold D-Evo (seems superior to canted sights)

KDG Surefire Scout Offset Mount (QD)
Surefire M300 Mini Scout Light
Lanco Tactical Grip Stop (could double as barrier stop)

I don’t anticipate having any range requirements past 300 yards for a defensive carbine (although in the words of Costa, there’s nothing “defensive” about shooting another human being), so a 14.5 is fine. I don’t mind perm-ing the QDC FH as it looks like a great piece of kit with no sympathetic ring. Also 14.5" matches better with the 12" MREX rail. And before you point out that the 77 gr. is optimal for longer guns, I’ll remind that it also fragments more consistently and at greater distances out of short barrels than alternative rounds, which is a big reason Mk. 262 is in high demand overseas aside from SPR work what I’ve read. Apparently it’s considered one of the more lethal options for close engagements, while M855 is reserved for barriers. I’ll provide sources if asked to. So even though I don’t plan on reaching out far with the gun, I think the D-Evo would still be useful for at least acquiring targets.

I’m swapping the SR-15’s stock furniture and rail, and I’m going MLOK because from my research it seems to be the better option for weight and ease of use. Plus the MREX is compatible with KDG’s quick-detach stuff, like the flashlight mount and picatinny section for the grip stop. I could be convinced to go tape button instead of push button.

Anyway this is just a draft, so thanks for reading and please help me edit. 'Preciate it!

2

Welcome to the forum.

It sounds like you’ve never shot an AR before or have very limited experience so I would suggest that instead of getting the SR-15 (which would be an exceptional choice), to instead spend ~$800-$1000 on a base AR (not including optics) like a Colt 6720 or 6920 or other known quality brand and the other ~$1500-$2000 on a few cases of ammo (bulk stuff, not MK 262) and take a couple of carbine classes. After you’ve shot the gun enough, you’ll have a better idea of what you want/need vs what you should get before even shooting the gun.

ETA:

FWIW, G&R Tactical has the Colt models in stock. Click the picture to go to the webpage. All you would need are a couple of extra magazines, a mag pouch or two, and a sling and you’ll have all you need for a carbine class.

$799 - Colt AR6720 Lightweight Carbine

$850 - Colt LE 6920

If you want to add some of your own furniture.

$725 - Colt LE6920 OEM1

$725 - Colt LE6920 OEM2

Or pre-fitted with all Magpul stuff.

$912 - Colt LE6920MPS-B Magpul MOE SL Black

3

Thanks for the response. I have experience with several types of firearms, from bolt actions to AKs. Never taken a class with an AR, and no I’ve never owned one, but I’m proficient with the platform and have probably put 6,000 rounds through them collectively at the range. Mostly friends’ LWRCs, Noveskes and BCMs. Does that qualify me for something a little more fine-tuned?

4

Hey man, I get what you’re doing. I really do. You’re being analytical and trying to make the best decisions you possibly can and get the best stuff you possibly can. There’s something appealing about that. But for real, there is absolutely no need to spend all that money on this stuff unless you’re super rich and DGAF. It won’t make a difference. I’m not saying to buy a cheapo DPMS or Bushmaster or whatever. Far from it. I’m recommending that you get a quality AR from Colt or BCM. Get a free-floating rail of your choice – something on the longer side. Put an Aimpoint on it, get some BUIS, put a Surefire on it, and put an adjustable two-point sling on it (Vickers sling for me). Buy a bunch of USGI mags. Spend the leftover money on a training session (or three) with a pro. It’s really that simple. Nothing you’re going to buy is going to perform at all better than the solution I’ve just described. It may look better and have the sexy factor, but beyond that it’s a complete waste IMHO.

As far as the MK262 – yeah, I love the stuff. Shot it overseas and shoot it here. You’d be surprised how far you can push a 14.5’’ AR with MK262. But it’s a total waste of money between 0 and 300 meters for training purposes, at least. That’s what bulk 55gr is for.

Having said that, if when it comes to firearms ownership you derive your satisfaction from having whizzbang gear, and you can afford it, then have at it. But it’s important for someone to tell you and for you to hear that in all honesty, it does not matter.

5

Its not that you dont rate a great rifle, which the KAC certainly is, its more that weve all spent a ton of money chasing the perfect rifle. The only way to know what the perfect rifle is for YOU is to shoot. Shoot a lot and preferably under a reputable instructor.

That being said a couple things about your setup.

  1. Why are you wanting to ditch the KAC rail? Its a fantadtic rail and is pretty light weight.
  2. Why the Leupold D-evo? If you mess up that gun hard enough to beak a Micro, Im suspecting that Leupold isnt going to work either. Matter of fact Id put money on the Leupold going first. Back up iron sighta are just that, back ups. Aimpoints are very very robust optics. Hell if I hadnt seen a buddies get shot off his rifle Id almost say you dont need back up irons.
  3. Thats a heavy stock you are looking at. Why that one?

Personally, Id skip the Leupold D-evo and the replacement rail… then take to 2100 bucks you saved and buy 3000 rounds of M193 and go take a couple or three classes.

Couple things to remember.
It aint the arrow, its the Indian.
The gun is a tool, you are the weapon.

EDIT: AOcake beat me to the punch. I do agree with him on the M262 though. Under 300 yards you are wasting money. Especially with a red dot. For defense, yeah they work really well. I used it in Iraq in 05. But for range ammo… complete waste. That is of course unless you are rich.

6

I guess I’ll add this to what I said earlier. If for whatever reason you want to move away from the orthodox solution I’ve described, one way to go about it intelligently is to get an ambi selector and a Geissele trigger. Now you’re really getting something for your money. SSA and SD-C triggers are things of beauty (same with the E models for SPR’s). This is one of the few things you can do equipment wise to noticeably improve performance.

7

Thanks for the responses, guys. I assumed this would seem overkill. I know some guys who are super OCD with their gear, all the way down to their rations and tactical zippers, and I don’t care about any of that logistical stuff. I just wanted a functional and reliable carbine that wasn’t over the top. To me it’s just a blaster with 2 optics, a light and a hand stop, but you’re right the parts added up are expensive. I may just buy the Knights, keep as is, buy the T2 and take a class.

8

And you will have a FANTASTIC setup. Seriously, the SR15 is a top of the line AR.

EDIT: Dont forget the Surefire and sling. Those are a must as well.

9

I was considering it more as a rapid variable distance solution, not a backup. It’s designed to be used in conjunction with the prinary optic, as I’m sure you know. Since I’m building defensivley it was to be mainly for identifying targets at range, but since I don’t work in target-rich environments it may be a bit much.

10

Where do you live and what is the realistic ranges that you would need to identify a target? Even in a real world shit hits the fan scenario?

For a general purpose magnified rifle optic Im a big fan of the 3x ACOG. You also have a good selection of great 1-4 or 1-6 variables available these days.

11

Without knowing you or your experience it’s hard to say. It just seems peculiar to want to drop over $5k on a first AR sight unseen with some parts that aren’t even available or field tested. If weight is a concern, the UBR is one of the heaviest stocks out there and the D-EVO is close to a pound.

What type of shooting are you planning on using the rifle for? What type of shooting were those 6,000 rounds? Was there anything specific you didn’t like about your friends’ rifles/optics/accessories? Mission drives the gear.

eta: kinda late to the reply. I had the page open before a0cake’s initial response.

12

Suburbs just outside a downtown area, streets stretch pretty far and straight though. I love dedicated 1x and just thought I could add a capability.

13

I just looked at the D-EVO. If someone handed me a rifle with that thing on it I would take it off literally immediately unless I was alternating between working in Afghan villages and remote mountains or something analogous to that. I can’t think of any reason I would want that in the US. If you shoot someone at a range where that thing is necessary you are going to jail and had no reason to shoot in the first place (I say this only because you mentioned this was a defensive rifle). If you want the gun for target shooting but want to be able to shoot close-in as well for a defensive scenario, a nice 1-X optic with a FFP reticle might be a good option.

But again, I have sort of strong opinions. You’re obviously free to reject them and do your own thing. Just figured you’d want to hear a diversity of views.

14

Noted. This list and more specifically that optic choice was a combination of the phase where I was planning for literally anything to go down, and then the realization that the chances are so slim of something that dire that it’s better to just plan for a much more common scenario, ie close range defense.

15

It sounds like you have this very well thought out. Half of that stuff I had to look up. I’m guessing this isn’t your first rodeo, lol. But I’ll give you my two cents anyways since you asked for it!:wink:

Knights is without a doubt a very good rifle. I would venture to say that you can get ARs that are a better value, BCM comes to mind, but Knights quality is well known even if you have to pay dearly for the name. Regarding the barrel life, 20,000 rounds is about average for a thick chrome lined CHF, so don’t think that’s something that only Knights can do. Any FN double chrome barrel will perform likewise. If it were me personally, I would just build what I wanted out of good parts if I was going to start changing rails and whatnot. There’s no reason to pay a huge premium for Knights if it’s not exactly what you want. There are lots of top notch barrels out there, so you won’t have any problem building a rifle on par with anything on the market and not having to spend more money than you have to. It would be a shame to have to immediately shelve expensive parts. That’s where building really saves you money, if there’s something very specific that you’re trying to achieve.

Regarding the optics, I would personally not go with the offset Leupold D-Evo. I would be looking into the Leupold Mark 6. At 1x it’s pretty much a red dot, and it will go out to 300 yards with range to spare at 6x. You’ll save some weight, not to mention money, and gain magnification. Optics planet has demo models for 1700 right now, so that would save you some serious coin and give you better performance. You might even look into a 1-4x, like the one from USO. The only disadvantage to a 1x variable scope is that you have to adjust the range, whereas you can rapidly change ranges with a setup like the one you’re proposing. You’ll just have to decide if it’s worth the extra cost and weight. In any case, I think it’s a better idea than those magnifiers. But I can’t see how it’s vastly superior to an ACOG with an RMR on top. YMMV.

As for the ammo, the SMKs are popular with regular carbine shooters because they’re the only hollow point available to the military due to an insane self imposed UN regulation that the US didn’t even ratify. And literally anything is better than green tip. The stuff has terrible terminal performance and it’s not all that great at penetrating barriers, especially when you consider that we already had a good AP round that was supposedly actually pretty good on the terminal end. To put it mildly, green tip is an unmitigated disaster. So our troops will take anything if green tip is the only other choice. Don’t get me wrong though, SMKs the sh!t and then some for long range precision shooting, but there are much better bullets in terms of terminal performance for up close. Especially when you start looking into lead free ammo; that stuff does bad things at close to intermediate ranges. Generally speaking, long range accuracy and terminal performance don’t go hand in hand, and the SMKs strike a good balance between the two, but they heavily lean towards accuracy. But it’s a great round, especially at longer ranges. It will definitely help you with wind when you’re shooting past 200 or so.

Hope that helps. There’s nothing wrong with your proposed setup, rather the opposite in fact, but I assure you that you can get the same level of performance much less expensively. On the other hand, if you’re independently wealthy, then have at it! In which case we can help get you set up with late gen night vision and IR modules.:wink:

16

As a civilian, choosing defensive ammo for a 5.56 AR for its “fragmentation range” is going about it backwards. While bullets that break apart after impact are better than FMJs that merely tumble, they are not as effective as bullets designed to expand.

You also mentioned wanting to go with a 14.5" barrel with a pinned muzzle device. You’ll find that a 16" barrel will let you make changes to your upper much easier.

I love the UBR stock. Rugged and comfortable but unfortunately, it’s also heavy and expensive. I finally replaced it with something lighter and allowed me to use an A5 receiver extension assembly for a little smoother recoil and a more forgiving rifle

17

Epic and honest response. I went the cost efficient route as well. Even with my SBRs. The barter system is still a viable method of attaining parts too. Nothing wrong with being a frugal warrior. Most people won’t admit it, but they are.
OK. Me first. I’M A PROUD FRUGAL WARRIOR!!! passes candle to next AR owner LOL!!!

18

The 20k was in reference to people firing these things without cleaning them once, like this guy: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UvPmJYcgBSo
He documented the whole process and KAC even put the rifle on display in their booth during last year’s SHOT. Also an E3 bolt has never been recorded to break or crack, not once.

19

PS-forgot to add this. The UBR is indeed very heavy, but that weight actually helps you shoot the rifle offhand by acting as a counterbalance. It will actually reduce fatigue when shooting. I know that sounds like a marketing gimmick from Magpul, but I can attest to its validity. If you have to hump the rifle halfway across the Hindu Kush, it’s not so friendly. But if it’s a domestically possible scenario, then the extra weight in the stock will help you stay steadier when shooting standing offhand without support.

Oh, and the deal with the 14.5’’ barrel. If you pay attention to anything I say, then let it be this. Stay the blank away from permanently attached muzzle devices! You won’t notice a difference between 14.5’’ and 16’’ barrels. You literally cannot tell the difference unless you hold them up next to each other. It’s not worth the tax stamp, and it’s certainly not worth dealing with the drama of a permanent muzzle device. I have a 14.5’’ carbine that I bought because it was a good deal. Well, I now realize why it was a good deal. The thing is a royal pain to work on, and I can’t get rid of it. Somewhere down the line, you’re going to want a suppressor, so don’t shoot yourself in the foot by having to deal with a pinned flash hider. Again, I have both, and I can’t tell the difference, not one little bit.

20

Only if Leprechauns change the laws of physics when you pick up your AR. Rifles that are known hang well when shooting offhand are slightly muzzle heavy. If you want a lively feeling longarm when tracking a moving target, you still want it to be slightly muzzle heavy, but you want it to be light. A heavy rifle is still a heavy rifle no matter how well balanced it is