New LWRC Variant: Sheepdog

[jonconsiglio]

@RangerRed

Just as a matter of curiosity, how do you feel about a DI AR of a similar price point? Something along the lines of KAC or Larue? Since it’s essentially not doing anything better than a decent AR at twice the cost would you consider that snake oil of a different flavor or more justified of an expense than a piston gun? Thanks.

The KAC SR15 brings alot to the table for the price. A $180 trigger, a $390 bolt carrier group, $190 rear sight, ambi lower and what was once a $500 URX II, but now a little over $300. If you tried to build a KAC SR15 from parts, you’d be a few hundred over the MSRP. The selling price is a couple hundred less than MSRP.

A majority of piston rifles use standard parts but toss a rod in there. That’s not a $1,000 step up from a Colt. Even if the hand guard was $500, the rod is still not a $500 step up.

[Hwikek]

These are the sorts of threads that are quickly locked on occasion. I don’t see how people just attack the piston or direct impingement because one, actually far more than one, company makes a bad model and that somehow makes any other model that uses the same action bad as well.

As far as I understand the main issue about pistons is that they cause carrier tilt due to a lack of an o-ring. The other complaint is parts availability and lastly is price for civilians and difficulty with Tulammo, if you believe the YouTube dirt shooters who say that the piston companies only use the expensive ammo for testing, not that the companies are vying for military contracts and use military grade ammo for testing.

Most detractors from direct impingement models will point to Vietnam because they assume that M16s and the like did not change since Vietnam.

I can see telling people not to buy a low quality piston, like what I’ve seen about POF on this forum, but a 416 upper should be at least as reliable as a TDPed upper. Now if only they didn’t cost $3500 and only have a supply on HKParts.net… I see more high quality direct impingement models in most users’ foreseeable future.

[MegademiC]

@RangerRed

Just as a matter of curiosity, how do you feel about a DI AR of a similar price point? Something along the lines of KAC or Larue? Since it’s essentially not doing anything better than a decent AR at twice the cost would you consider that snake oil of a different flavor or more justified of an expense than a piston gun? Thanks.

except being 2x or more as accurate, and/or having a fully ambi lower…

Accuracy is not snake oil, its a quantified veriable, as are times provided by a shot timer when doing drills (weak hand/ambi lower).

On a side note, the word “sheepdog” reminds me of “judge” for some reason.

[northern1]

@jonconsiglio

The KAC SR15 brings alot to the table for the price. A $180 trigger, a $390 bolt carrier group, $190 rear sight, ambi lower and what was once a $500 URX II, but now a little over $300. If you tried to build a KAC SR15 from parts, you’d be a few hundred over the MSRP. The selling price is a couple hundred less than MSRP.

A majority of piston rifles use standard parts but toss a rod in there. That’s not a $1,000 step up from a Colt. Even if the hand guard was $500, the rod is still not a $500 step up.

Well put

[Littlelebowski]

@markm

No shit. It’s not hard to spot the LWRCi friends/family/wives on this site. Damn they’ve been hitting us hard the last few weeks.

LWRCi SUCKS ASS!!!

You need to give it a fucking rest, dude. Seriously. You are actually foaming at the mouth and having a fit, eh?

[Littlelebowski]

@MegademiC

On a side note, the word “sheepdog” reminds me of “judge” for some reason.

Same here. Can’t stand the term sheepdog.

[rob_s]

@Littlelebowski

Same here. Can’t stand the term sheepdog.

It seems to have been taken on by the out of shape, un-trained, lumbering, suburban dad contingent. As if it somehow conveys a mindset and willingness that will overcome all those other things when it really matters.

On the OP, my question would be what do you get in this package that you don’t get with a similarly configured Larue or Noveske at a lower price?

This whole tho of “to each their own” is both accurate (waste your money however you like) but also a cop out in these discussions and seems to convey a lack of any quantifiable argument in favor of the utterer’s position.

[SWATcop556]

I personally don’t have a need for a piston rifle but some due. Ive been recently introduced to a few people who use LWRC rifles operationally without issues.

I’m aware of the past history with the company but I also know people who I respect who have no issues with the rifles so there are two sides to everything.

If you want to spend the money then get after it. I don’t have a need for one but that’s just me.

As for people deliberately seeking out LWRC threads just to scream from the mountain tops, it’s getting old. We get it, people hate LWRC and that’s fine but this is a site for ALL. If people wish to discuss shortcomings of this rifle or that rifle in a professional manner like adilts, well that’s what we are all here for. Posting further equivalents of “fuck you and your LWRC” needs to stop. Consider this a public warning to all.

[mrosamilia]

@SWATcop556

I personally don’t have a need for a piston rifle but some due. Ive been recently introduced to a few people who use LWRC rifles operationally without issues.

I’m aware of the past history with the company but I also know people who I respect who have no issues with the rifles so there are two sides to everything.

If you want to spend the money then get after it. I don’t have a need for one but that’s just me.

As for people deliberately seeking out LWRC threads just to scream from the mountain tops, it’s getting old. We get it, people hate LWRC and that’s fine but this is a site for ALL. If people wish to discuss shortcomings of this rifle or that rifle in a professional manner like adilts, well that’s what we are all here for. Posting further equivalents of “fuck you and your LWRC” needs to stop. Consider this a public warning to all.

AMEN!!! Can’t we all just get along… I am here to learn and become a more informed individual in my chosen hobby.

[SnakeX13D]

@rob_s

It seems to have been taken on by the out of shape, un-trained, lumbering, suburban dad contingent. As if it somehow conveys a mindset and willingness that will overcome all those other things when it really matters.

On the OP, my question would be what do you get in this package that you don’t get with a similarly configured Larue or Noveske at a lower price?

This whole tho of “to each their own” is both accurate (waste your money however you like) but also a cop out in these discussions and seems to convey a lack of any quantifiable argument in favor of the utterer’s position.

Why does it have to be an argument in the first place?

To answer your question:

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/lwrc/

Scroll down past the uppers and read. The NiCorr’d upper assembly and tilt-less carrier come to mind, but that article goes into extensive detail.

(Thanks for the back, SWATcop.)

[Iraqgunz]

If an overpriced piston with proprietary parts is appealing, then by all means get one.

I prefer to stick with a DI gun that uses parts easily located on the open market and can be easily torn apart and repaired or modified by moi.

[SnakeX13D]

The only parts that have any sort of a service life besides the barrel (which goes for all firearms) is the piston cup and the return spring.

Easily located here: http://www.lwrci.com/c-66-piston-parts.aspx

Easily installed by the end user. YMMV.

[rob_s]

@SnakeX13D

Why does it have to be an argument in the first place?

To answer your question:

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/lwrc/

Scroll down past the uppers and read. The NiCorr’d upper assembly and tilt-less carrier come to mind, but that article goes into extensive detail.

(Thanks for the back, SWATcop.)

So the extra features it offers are features necessary to make up for including a piston system to begin with? I’m confused. Why no just use the DI system that doesn’t impart carrier tilt so that I don’t need an anti-tilt carrier?

[mrosamilia]

I can only speak for myself but after running off 500 or so rounds I like the cleanup simplicity. I am not by any means well off but I work hard so therefor I play hard price doesn’t even factor for me when it comes to my toys not to mention something my life may depend on…

Now having said that my only LWRC product to date is a 16" REPR that I love and have had zero issues with. My current 5.56 crew includes two SR15’s and a 6920. FWIW

[SnakeX13D]

@rob_s

So the extra features it offers are features necessary to make up for including a piston system to begin with? I’m confused.

So am I. How did you come to that conclusion? That read-up is demonstrating that, aside from being free from the usual fare of piston AR myths and false facts, those are some of the best barrels/barrel assemblies on the market, for one, and two, they’re not compensating for a piston system by including those features. Those are just standard for their whole lineup.

@rob_s

Why no just use the DI system that doesn’t impart carrier tilt so that I don’t need an anti-tilt carrier?

If it makes you feel any better, the .300 AAC BLK PSD they developed is a DI weapon (their first one, at that.) But besides the DI system, it still has all the same features as their other rifles, further testifying to the fact that none of said aforementioned features are included for any reason having to do with or “make up for” the piston system at all.

[WS6]

@SnakeX13D

So am I. How did you come to that conclusion? That read-up is demonstrating that, aside from being free from the usual fare of piston AR myths and false facts, those are some of the best barrels/barrel assemblies on the market, for one, and two, they’re not compensating for a piston system by including those features. Those are just standard for their whole lineup.

If it makes you feel any better, the .300 AAC BLK PSD they developed is a DI weapon (their first one, at that.) But besides the DI system, it still has all the same features as their other rifles, further testifying to the fact that none of said aforementioned features are included for any reason having to do with or “make up for” the piston system at all.

I seem to recall a bunch of LWRC DI BCG’s being sold off for CHEAP a few years back. Everyone scrambled to get one IIRC.

[rob_s]

I see that this is becoming (started out as?) one of those “I bought it so I’m going to defend it” things so I’ll leave you to your fun.

[SnakeX13D]

That’s strange, I don’t recall them ever doing that. They only just recently developed one for the M4 PIP:

@rob_s

I see that this is becoming (started out as?) one of those “I bought it so I’m going to defend it” things so I’ll leave you to your fun.

I don’t have to defend my rifles, they can defend themselves. Seriously, I’m not trying to justify an expense, just clearing up whatever misconceptions you might have in a professional and informative matter.

[DeltaSierra]

@RangerRed

Just as a matter of curiosity, how do you feel about a DI AR of a similar price point? Something along the lines of KAC or Larue? Since it’s essentially not doing anything better than a decent AR at twice the cost would you consider that snake oil of a different flavor or more justified of an expense than a piston gun? Thanks.

The SR-15 is fully ambidextrous, and the bolt/barrel extension has been redesigned, resulting in a longer service life. So, yes, the SR-15 does something different (arguably even ‘better’) than a standard Colt or BCM.

The Larue is a specialty rifle, intended for certain applications that require a high degree of precision. So yes, it is doing something ‘better’ than your standard Colt/BCM rifle.

When you are adding ambidextrous features, or increasing accuracy, that falls into a different category than adding cost without adding any real benefit.

[MegademiC]

Ok, I read it, assuming you compare it to a good ar that costs 1/3 up to the same price, and follows the tdp:

They mention small parts compromise of small bcg parts. Gas rings(if weapon is made well) last for 1000s or rounds. Gas keys are staked, so that’s a non-issue, I’ve never heard of ejector parts failing from heat due to DI, could be true, but I have not experienced nor read about it.

They mention early extraction, I was under the impression that this was an over gassing problem, but I really don’t know so If someone more knowledgeable could shed light, it would be appreciated.

Bolt material and testing is not mentioned. Also, is there now more risk of the bolt lugs failing due to increased stress from lack of DI?

They look like they run very clean, which is nice, and they appear remove some scheduled maintenance. I would consider these to be convenience with the extra $1k better spent on ammo or training (for my purposes). I still do not see what they do better than a DI ar, other than run cleaner(and how much does this really affect function?). If someone has or wants one, that’s fine. However, the claims that the materials are better are still not backed up from sources I’ve seen.

The reason larues and noveskes don’t have tilt-less carriers is because they use the standard DI system which doesn’t cause the carrier to tilt in the first place. Stoner designed the origional anti-tilt carrier;)!

Im still not sold on them. If you want one, or buy one, I’ll give you more power. They look well made, but due to the way I analyze the data I’ve seen, I’ll stick with other options for now. That said, I will never be in a situation where I have to fire more than 400rnds without at least adding lube, or have a chance to do a wipe-down, so the only possible advantage I see does not help me any.

those are some of the best barrels/barrel assemblies on the market

Maybe I missed this part, but who makes the blanks and who finishes them? I saw no mention of the steel they use, or manufacturing process. What makes them the best?