It’s almost that time of year when I budget and allocate funds for all of my shooting and training for next year. I’ve been shooting and training with pistols for a while and at one time was shooting 1K rounds per month. I recently transitioned into a new position and moved across country so that has slowed down some due to time constraints, but I still practice as much as I can.
My question is concerning carbine practice and actual usage. Im an engineer, not LEO/Mil. I live in and office out of a very nice area of Pittsburgh but travel to all surrounding states and even KY, MO, and IL on occasion. For the most part I live in a 50-70 yard world and the only place I see I would feasibly use my carbine would be in the home.
What would you spend most of your time and resources practicing on, if you were in my situation? Im still likely to spend more time and energy focusing on my handgun skills but would like to incorporate carbine shooting and manipulation into my training. For instance, I’ve found I get the most out of my handgun training if I limit my practice sessions to about 200 rounds at a time. If I go weekly that is 800 rounds a month plus any matches I get to. How much rifle shooting would I reasonably have to add in and at what distance do you think?
Main reason I am asking is I’m getting ready to buy all my reloading supplies. I like to buy once a year in bulk. How many rifle rounds should I plan on? Also, for purposes of the carbine classes I’m going to buy commercial ammo. You think 2 cases would be enough?
I know it is kind of rambling, but I wanted to provide as much specific information as I can to avoid asinine “its apples vs oragnes IMO type comments”
Finally, even though I am still training with it and mucking around with it, I’ve come to the conclusion that carbine is a waste of time for 99% of us. It’s enjoyable because it’s flashy and easy (or at least easier) and there’s more to do in terms of bolt-ons and support gear, but the carbine is not my primary. For virtually everyone outside the military they should be focusing on the handgun, and their carry handgun at that. Practicing with a 5" 1911 and carrying a S&W snubbie isn’t much better than wasting a lot of time with the carbine. This isn’t to say that the carbine is totally useless, or that one shouldn’t train with it, but I see a trend where people spend 90% of their training time and dollars on carbine ant 10% on handgun, when IMHO that ratio should be inverted.
I just came across this while reading. That answer part of my question I guess.
I do a 50/50 approach.
I have to drive a considerable distance if I want to do anything other than 1 shot per second at 7 to 25 yards (indoor pistol) with retarded target rules or 25/50/100/200 from benches with rifle with a 20 minute turn-around. So, since I have to devote approx 3 hrs to the drive, I want to be at the range for no less than 4 hours.
It depends on what skill set I am working on as to how much ammo I shoot. The drills that most benefit from live fire are multiple-shot and precison (this applies to both rifle and pistol). If you spend all of your time with the rifle/carbine inside 50 yards you are only getting 1/2 of your potential out of it, and therefore can cut time and ammo by at least 50%.
Thanks, I guess my question should be approx. what percentage of my training limited time should I devot to my rifle? Same with ammo. Is 200 rounds a month suffecient to work on what I need to live fire wise?
It can be.
Depends on where you put your priorities and how well you know the gun’s setup, especially sights.
I would recommend taking a quality class that involves both weapons and figure out from there where you want to devote your training time on each platform.
I think that a balance between the two is the best from a training/performance standpoint.
And frankly, a consistent 200 rounds a month is more than most devote to training (I don’t count competitions or plinking as training). It can be sufficient if your fundamentals of practical marksmanship are sound to maintain and gradually improve skill as long as it is in conjunction with dedicated non-live fire practice. Simply going with more shots fired per month is not necessarily going to do anything more for you unless it is a part of a deliberate training effort. The same applies to pistol.
I don’t think that a 90/10 split between platforms is the optimal way to go, but the point is valid. Focus on what you need the greatest performance from, if they are of equal importance, split training time and effort between them. Round count alone is not the ultimate indicator of platform dedication.
I like the 3-gun view on it:
Learn to shoot your pistol as fast as possible
Learn to shoot your rifle as accurately as possible
Learn to reload your shotgun as fast as you can
Of course, accuracy is important with the shotgun and pistol, just as speed and manipulations are important accross the board, but those areas deserve to be deliberately focused on.
To be clear, none of what I am saying is absolute, and training time/ammo is on a sliding scale of mastery based on what you want to be able to do with any given platform.
Shoot as much as you can afford. As for training, 50/50 is good or maybe 60/40 pistol/rifle.
If I had it my way I would shoot 1000rnds a month for pistol alone. That gives me about 250 rounds a week. IMO that’s a good amount.
Rifle if you can’t do it once a week try once every 2 weeks. Same about 300 rounds would be nice.
Also remember, you can dry fire at home and that costs nothing.
Personally I shoot mainly pistol . I used to do 1k/month but thats toned down some recently. I hardly shoot carbine at all at maybe 200/month.
Heres the thing. Once I had invested in quality training on both platforms the better I got on a pistol the better my carbine got as well, although not to the same rate. If I shoot a pistol at 90% then Im prob a 75% on the carbine. The good news is while Im no carbine rock star the gun is easier to shoot and my realistic range is shorter and easier than the rifle range and so Im more than comfortable with my skill level for it.
BUT… before I had decent carbine training no matter how good I got on pistol the key differences in platform made me a 0 on that gun. Weapons manipulation, mounting the gun, offset, all of these where not intuitive and so actually using the gun required a lot of thought.
In order to give an answer to the OP’s question, I’d have to ask him whether he’s training to be able to defend himself and loved ones or just to develop proficiency for its own sake.
If it’s for self/family defense, then I’d say add some unarmed stuff, some interactive dynamic stuff (Force-on-Force) to hone situational awareness and decision-making skills, knife training (if you carry one), first aid training focused on dealing with gunshot wounds, knife cuts, and such, and strength and cardio workouts. Maybe add some low light training too. IMO the situational awareness and decision-making, unarmed combat skills, medical stuff, and strength/conditioning are more important than pistol skills. Long gun skills are the least important of the whole bunch.
As mentioned above, if it is defensive driven, there are many other aspects to consider, but I will stick with just the weapons end of the equation, but I will say there is much much more to defensive shooting concepts than just weapons manipulations etc…But in no way am I under emphasizing sound fundamentals and basic firearms skills. Having said that, it is hard for me to give an answer without clearly understanding what your intended uses are? Carry, home defense only, or recreational / competition shooting such as the 3 gun mention? All all of the above? My answers would vary.
If you carry outside the home for defensive purposes, that pretty much means pistol, so I would concentrate more heavily on pistol and defensive shooting as opposed to competition based shooting. On the other hand if you don’t carry outside the home and rely on a firearm for home defense, whichever weapon is your primary choice would dictate training time. Now if is for recreation, it really only matters on what gives you pleasure. If it is for competition, say 3 gun, well I would do 50% pistol, 35% rifle, 15% shotgun, or adjust to accommodate wherever you feel your deficiency lies. I would also follow the recipe stated by F2S for 3 gun where you want speed with the pistol, accuracy for the rifle and fast shotgun reloads. Work up your training and drills that that focus heavily on those aspects.
In addition to the above responses, you have to ask yourself which platform you are more natural at and which you have to dedicate more time to in order to be proficient at the level you want to be. For example, I know I can go much longer without shooting my carbine than I can my pistol while still maintaining my proficiency and accuracy…I tend to think that pistol should take a little more of your training since it is harder to “master” and it is what you carry everyday (if you have a CCL). Depending on how you view your carbine, and what you THINK you may have to use it for one day, will help you decide how much to train on it…I think 10% is quite low to be honest, but that is really a personal question.
Sorry If I want more clear in my first post. The only thing I intend to use this rifle for is home defense. I was fortunate enough to grow up with a father who taught me to shoot rifles from a young age, so Im profecient in the basics of marksmanship. Grew up hunting and what-not.
target aquisition (reactive fire drills) I like shapes or colors.
Immediate action drills
multiple targets with mag changes. 3-6 targets, 2 shots each, random # of shots per mag.
Thats just a couple that I do regularly. Basically anything that could come up in a CQB scenario would be good practice.
As far as rifle vs pistol training that is up to you but while I carry a handgun every day (on and off duty) I still believe a rifle is better in every shooting scenario.
I might have missed it, but have you had any FORMAL training in either pistol or carbine? If not, stop shooting and get some training (as you are just practicing your bad habits).
If you are in PA, you are in a fantastic place for training. Grey Group Training is doing a bunch of classes in your area and if you do not mind a 1.5hr drive, we teach (for free) carbine and pistol classes all Spring-Fall every month.
I do have formal handgun training and I am planning on 2 carbine classes next year. I do appreciate the invitation to train. Ill will get with you soon.
I only took my first carbine class recently, but have done a number of pistol classes with some tallented instructors.
I had no problems keeping up with some good shooters on the carbine, because of my pistol shooting skills. Manipulations, lateral transitions, presentations and what not were slower than better shooters could do them in, but not so much so that I felt like a “noob” or anything.
Pistol is harder, and most of us are more likely to use it than we are a carbine.
Finally taking that carbine class lit the flame for me to want to shoot carbine more now, but I am putting blade training, empty hand training, and tactics training ahead of that. I think I am much more likely to need to use my hands to get out of jam, than I am my carbine.
It’s just my opinion and experience, but I think most tallented pistol shooters can adapt relatively quickly to shooting a carbine.
I agree with Jim D. I’ve found being a good pistol shooter carries over to the rifle, but the reverse isn’t as true.
There’s evidence of this in the competition world as well where some top pistol shooters entered 3 Gun and quickly shot to the top, bypassing folks that have been shooting a rifle a long time.
I also agree that most of us here (LEOs and civilians that carry concealed) are much more likely to use a handgun than a carbine. Exception would be military and some LEOs.
Kyle Defoor has two part blog post that’s relevant.
The first thing you need to do is clearly identify your needs of training FOR THE REAL WORLD, such as; carbine, pistol, blade, combatives, physical fitness, tactics. Once you’ve made a list of the what, honestly ask yourself what you really NEED the most and which one you just LIKE to do. Here lies the problem. We (humans) like to practice what we’re good at, and what makes us feel good. Over time this is a recipe for disaster.
Prioritize those needs- Next step is to put in order those training needs according to your job/application. Again, people aren’t honest with themselves. They want to do what is sexy or easy.
Myself as an example:
Fitness
Combatives
Blade
Pistol
Carbine
Tactics
What you say Kyle? You teach shooting for a living and pistol and carbine are 4 and 5? That’s right. REAL WORLD, remember? The chances of me using a carbine for real again are slim to none. Pistol is a little better (because I carry some). The biggest thing is I shoot both weapons week in and week out,every day!, so my need to train them is not there. My most likely scenario as a civilian is a fight in very close quarters. The blade is always with, but, hand to hand is more likely first. I list fitness number one because it helps so much in a fight, and the survivability and recovering of a confrontation. In my opinion fitness has to be in the top spot regardless. [/i]
Thanks for posting that. That post captures a lot of what I have been thinking. Why would I prioritize carbine training when it is probably the absolute last thing I would probably ever have to use.
As a civilian CHL holder mine would look like this:
Fitness
Mindset and Tactics
Pistol
Blade and Empty-Hand
Carbine
I really appreciate the input. My schedule so far is a Bob Vogel Pistol class in April. I would still like to get in 1 carbine class, and instead of a 2nd carbine class take a non firearm class from Inpax.
I would spend one range session a month working carbine. I would spend a lot of time doing things dry at home with your rifle though. The rifle has a more complex manual of arms, and learning to work it one handed is also a lot more difficult then a pistol. Fortunately you can practice, mag changes, IAD’s, complex malfunction clearances, etc at the house. If you can shoot your pistol well, chances are you can shoot (as in actuate the trigger without disturbing your sight alignment) your carbine without any problems. One day a month will let you verify your dry work. I’d work from about 15 yds and out. Work your manipulations up close for speed, and then back out and practice your marksmanship fundamentals.
