Bob – My experience with the guns was mostly pre-production. As I said, once they hit store shelves it very quickly became a “commercial only” product. The company at that time did not feel the rifle was ready for the big show in LE/mil. Also, in their defense, they were selling guns faster than they could produce them so there was little motivation to market them to the LE sector which pays less, costs more, and makes substantially greater demands on both the weapon and the manufacturer.
I cannot say that the new guns are “cheap,” I just don’t know enough about where they’re getting parts, what QC processes they’re currently using, etc. The ones I shot were all reliable and seemed accurate enough, though I never shot groups from one.
As for all the ergo issues, my only response is “I know.” They were all brought up before the final spec was set in stone. A very well respected Industry Professional here at M4C took the time, without compensation, to sit down with me and go over an early prototype with advice about how to tweak the gun to improve it. That was written up as a report which in turn ended up on the desk of the same guy who thinks this is the greatest weapon light ever:
Mediocre is mediocre. There is no merit award or silver lining to mediocrity. If so I will be expecting to see more on M4C extolling the savvy economic virtues of Oly, DPMS, and Century Arms. “Buying from the right” means nothing with this mindset. I see few patting Armalite on the back for mangling the AR18
I don’t see FN, HK, or Colt intentionally embracing mediocrity for the sake of being in “business to make money, not for the bragging rights of having the finest weapons in the world.” High Standards and profit are not mutually exclusive
This is not a philosophy I want to see permeating to other arms makers.
I know you arent speaking as a defender and supporter of the end product, but I am speaking as a SIG fan, who expected better. They have a string of misses, and I had higher hopes for their first civilian carbine in a long time. Its also vexing knowing that just north of us the Candians have access to a real SIG carbine.
Which of those companies do you see having any meaningful presence in the commercial market?
High Standards and profit are not mutually exclusive
I’d say Glock taught us otherwise. They proved that an 85% gun could dominate the marketplace almost overnight.
The commercial market factors in price just like LE/mil, but the difference is that the commercial market doesn’t know the difference, for the most part, between a piston gun and a DI gun (you’ll notice SIG doesn’t make much of a deal about the pistol system in their ads), etc.
I know you arent speaking as a defender and supporter of the end product
Not at all. I was a loud opponent of many of the QC changes and similar compromises the company started making in '05. You can see where that got me. :eek:
With all this talk about quality and innovation, a well finished piece of equiptment,
price not withstanding, and with every intention of putting on the hot spot, who are the top 3 manufactures of AR type rifles, IN YOUR OPIONION?
I am just curious, I spare no expense in the kit I purchase, not implying I have money to throw around. I will spend a great deal more If I know I am getting a superior piece of equiptment. Maybe others think that frivolous, I don’t know, and
it is after all my money.
This is also why I can’t seem to leave equiptment alone, I am always changing
this or that, like many who suscribe to this particular site.
With all this talk about quality and innovation, a well finished piece of equiptment,
price not withstanding, and with every intention of putting on the hot spot, who are the top 3 manufactures of AR type rifles, IN YOUR OPIONION TODD?
I am just curious, I spare no expense in the kit I purchase, not implying I have money to throw around. I will spend a great deal more If I know I am getting a superior piece of equiptment. Maybe others think that frivolous, I don’t know, and
it is after all my money.
This is also why I can’t seem to leave equiptment alone, I am always changing
this or that, like many who suscribe to this particular site.
If the funds become available, I may get one, just to screw around with, not serious.
At a Vickers class awhile back, Larry said he told SIG, he’d give his opinion on the gun, and what he would change, all for the cost of a carbine, they declined.
Just looking at the various alternatives to the AR, although Its only academic, I don’t see me or many others changing anytime soon.
Looks like the rifle has become a success despite itself, that says a lot for the original design.
It’s fixable, currently takes around $1,900 to get the rifle mostly fixed ($1,300 for the rifle, and another $600 for the parts). A lot better than $3,000, or $5-10k for that matter. You’ll get a quality rifle out of it. The noveskes and colts start at $1,300.
With all this talk about quality and innovation, a well finished piece of equiptment,
price not withstanding, and with every intention of putting on the hot spot, who are the top 3 manufactures of AR type rifles, IN YOUR OPIONION?
I am just curious, I spare no expense in the kit I purchase, not implying I have money to throw around. I will spend a great deal more If I know I am getting a superior piece of equiptment. Maybe others think that frivolous, I don’t know, and
it is after all my money.
This is also why I can’t seem to leave equiptment alone, I am always changing
this or that, like many who suscribe to this particular site.
You will probably have more responses to this question by starting a thread on one of the AR boards. My personal opinion is Colt, LMT, Noveske. I have a little experience with Colt and LMT but none with Noveske. I list Noveske because of their rep. and the satisfaction Noveske owner express here.
I recently bought a 556 swat and I’m very pleased with it. I have a\had one malfunction with it after 800 rounds down range. My only complaints are weight at 9.5 lbs with fore grip light and rail covers and the safety is a bit hard to reach sometimes. It seems very reliable though.
My SIG 556 now has ~ 1,000 rounds down the tube with no cleaning other than wiping out some of the white grease that covered the BCG when new and lubing once at the 200 round mark. Only issue so far was a few short stroke malfuntions during the first few hundred rounds with Wolf on the normal gas setting prior to wiping out the grease and lubing with Slip 2000. After that the gun has been flawless on the normal gas setting with Fed AE 223, Radway Green, M855, and Wolf.
I like the safety better than the AR15 safety. The grip, while making the reach to the mag release a stretch, does put my trigger finger in a very good position for making fast, accurate shots. Nevertheless, the AR grip overall is superior. Maybe Magpul or Tango Down will step up to the plate with a grip for the 556.
During my last shooting session with this gun, I brought one of my 16" midlength AR’s with me for a back to back comparison of the recoil. The Sig 556 recoils much slower and the dot from my Aimpoint bounced further off of the target, than it did when shooting the AR. However, the slower recoil allowed the Aimpoint dot to move much slower and made it easier to track than the fast bounce of the dot on the AR.
I fiddled with the 556 again in the gunstore yesterday. With the understanding that I have far more time behind the AR15, I don’t like the ergonomics on the 556, the controls don’t work for me, and its very nose heavy - and this one didn’t even have the rail system. This one also had an A2 stock affixed to be locally compliant. It still didn’t balance the rifle well. I’m pretty certain that I would like this rifle even less if it had a rail and a light affixed.
I’m all about blowing my hard earned money on the latest and the greatest and have even been known to buy a rifle that I find “interesting” - like when I purchased my M96, but the 556 went right back on the rack. I’m sure it works well, but frankly, being able to go thousands of rounds without cleaning isn’t something I really care about.
One thing I can say, my 556 went through quite a bit of Wolf ammunition. It was nice because my old M&P15 would jam fairly fast on the stuff, but the 556’s gas switch kept it running fine (and even without turning the switch the worst was a few failures to keep the bolt back on the last shot. Now I run a Colt 6271 so the weight difference was negligible to say the least. I found the 556 to be a bit easier to control for follow up shots.
My ONLY concern about the 556 is its status after the upcoming election. I am very pessimistic that Obama and a filibuster proof senate might do anything they want to gun owners. In that environment, an AK or an AR might be a better gun for a world where Assault Weapons are classified like NFA weapons or what not.
Otherwise, the 556 is a nice, very reliable, accurate carbine that weighs about the same as other piston ARs and takes most of the useful AR doo-dads.
Oh, I was just thinking if they are banned from production, but they are still legal to posess then parts for AKs and ARs will be easier to scrounge up. Heck, you probably won’t ever need any AK parts. The SIG 556 being so new, and with some “improved” parts I worry that it might still have some parts issues that haven’t cropped up. Don’t get me wrong, I actually liked my 556 better than my AR.
Gotcha. With the 556 having so many parts in common with the 551, I think there will always be a source of parts providing that they are available from Europe. Barrels can be fab’d here by any custom barrel maker. I already have around three spare sets of complete bolt groups, charging handles, gas systems, hammers, springs, etc… and am always on the lookout for more spare parts.
I think you just proved Greg’s point. Who has to be “always on the lookout” for spare AR parts?
And if you’re expecting Swiss Arms to provide any kind of support towards the 556, you are stepping towards the abyss. It was almost impossible to get them to support the 551 & 552 guns sold to mil/LE customers in the US.
I hear what you’re saying and I know you are well educated with regards to the Sig 556 and the Swiss Arms 55x series. Let me retract my previous statement; I do agree that the AR or AK is a better platform from a repair/support standpoint.
With that being said, I’ve had great luck with several folks over in Europe getting me just about any part I need for the 55x series. I’ve been dealing with them for the last 7 years with great success. Spare parts are out there, they are just expensive. And the 55x series is not very difficult to learn to support on one’s own, provided you have the right tools. Removing and installing barrels is very easy once you learn how to do it. Stripping the lower down and replacing all the internals is also very simple. Anything short of a catastrophic receiver failure can be dealt with. New barrels can be had if one has a custom barrel maker do them (Noveske will do standard stainless barrels for the 556).
The 55x series (to include the 556) would be sustainable, but at added expense and headache. Let me just be honest and say that I am a huge fan of the 55x series and will do anything it takes to keep it in my personal inventory.
