Im running a g19 gen 4. I recently switched to a 15lb action spring for reliability reasons and it noticably reduced muzzle dip. However, I still have some. At 7yards on a 3x5 set verically, .3 sec splits are as fast as I can see the sight settle on target and get hits. .25 will miss low(all but first shot). .2 sec splits, say 4-5 shots will be good elevation wise (might miss to the side- Ill get 2-3 hits in 5 shots.
I know grip will help side to side misses, but is there a way to manage muzzle dip? Im at a loss and at this point seems like sonething I just have to live with. Thoughts? Just shoot faster and work on grip?
Edit- the muzzle dip is minimal, but enough to miss the 3x5 at 7yds. Even my hits are on the bottom edge at .25 ish splits, other than first shot.
Return to battery. Gun oscillates a little. I videotaped myself in high speed and at .2splits, it dips, comes back up when I pull the trigger. At about .25 the muzzle dips a little again. Not much, but enough to push it off a 3x5 ( maybe an a-zone as well?) at 7 yards. I can post a vid if it helps. If I wait to .3s after the shot, the muzzle comes back up to rest on target. I can see all this happening within the rmr window as well.
I tried aiming high and missed everything, so shooting faster seems to work better, but it was 2 strings in one range trip, so looking for other’s opinions/explanation how they dealt with it.
“At 7 yards on a 3x5 set vertically, .3 sec splits are as fast as I can see the sight settle on target and get hits.”- This sounds like a “controlling recoil” issue, not a “going (back) into battery” issue.
A grip problem.
Support hand requires big grip. Shooting hand is best with a death grip on small and ring finger. Trigger finger is moderately relaxed- performing fine motor skill of pressing trigger.
If you’ve watched an accomplished shooter in action you’ll note the forearm muscles look like knotted ropes. This is due to a BIG grip on the pistol.
Splits of sub .2 should be fairly easily obtainable. I’m 66, an over the hill competitive shooter and still mange controlled splits of .16, granted with a 1911.
I suppose in the “real world” a diff of .04 seconds is a non issue however.
Sights come back to the target faster than I can pull the trigger (.1s)
In sequence:
Shoot -0:00
Slide back - ~0.05
Slide forward, then sight on target~0.08-0.15
Dot dips below target ~0.18 (about an inch or two)
Dot comes to target 0.2
Dot dips back down .25
Dot comes back to target and stays 0.3
Its almost like its oscillating off the web of my thumb?
Are you saying a more rigid grip will prevent that? I guess if I have a stiffer hold and relax/bend elbows more, that would make sense. Im definately gripping hard, but might need to work out the forarms more.
I’d call that a recoil management issue after seeing the video. I think the muzzle flip needs to be controlled better and that will reduce the muzzle dip as a result. The whole thing is moving both directions and moving multiple times. It’s wobbly during recoil.
While just head, arms and portion of upper torso are visible, these are my observations based on limited visual data:
Your hand(s) position look fine.
You appear to be craning your neck forward in an exaggerated position- try a bit more head upright.
From what I can see- you appear to have an aggressive, weight forward stance (think martial arts stance- shooting is the 'merican martial art)- that is good.
Try a “bigger”, stronger grip. CONTROL, or drive the gun.
FWIW: I’ve shot handguns for 35+ yrs (pretty well) and STILL remind myself to “grip the effing gun” when I shoot. It’s common to become consumed with “sight picture/trigger control” and neglect other basics.
It would be helpful to shoot with someone with a larger base of (handgun) experience- to gain their insight as you’re shooting.
Hopefully you have a mentor/range bud that qualifies. I’m a fan of one on one instruction for quickest results.
Unfortunately, Im the best pistol shooter I personally know- may have just met someone a bit better at the range, and we are trying to meet up for matches, so Ill try to pick his brain.
Comparing the recoil vs GMs on line, I can see a lot more recoil (when I shoot). I puchased a bucket and sand to start working grip strength/endurance. Ill update when I see some progress.
I find it is better to film.observe from the other side when looking at grip. Do you by chance have any video from the other side?
I attended a class by Rob Vogel, World Class Pistol Skills and decided to begin using his grip and working out with grippers as he advocated.
First, let me caution you not to go too hot and heavy on grip exercises, I developed tendonitis and had to quit for a while, then resume much lower.
I was already doing some of what he advocates, but one thing that made a huge difference was thinking about the difference between what he calls ‘monkey grip’ and a pinch grip.
I think Vogel is a good teacher. Like most instructors running a one-man show I felt his class size was too large, but he made a concerted effort to give individual attention to each shooter.
Ok- Proctor’s advice about pinching at the back is good- never did that (or know to go foreward or back), so Ill experiment.
Vogels grip is noticably better, but inconsisntency(maybe above issue) caused intermittent failure to lock back.
Also working on focusing on locking wrist (ring and pinky fingers tight) and general grip strength. Also noticed im not rotating elbows out (used to, dont know why I stopped?) Thanks a lot, guys.
Alright, new video from the left side(camera look up slightly).
Went for “big” grip, especially with support hand, and rolled elbows out/top of hands squeezing in.
Forgot to “lock” ring and small fingers, but I still think its an improvement. Agree or is there still a lot of room for improvement?
I’m still seeing a lot of bounce. The round is fired and the gun recoils then it dips low then back above the line and back on target. Admittedly video replay is new for me but all that movement seems like a lot.
Well, there’s always room for improvement, for all of us.
The gun appears more stable and looks to return to the same, neutral point after slide cycles.
Proof’s in the pudding; were your hits better?
Try the ring/little finger pinch as well.
Your form looks better.
Not a direct comparison as this was more like .3-.4 splits at 25yds, but I didnt see the dip I was seeing before (watching the dot)
I feel like Im heading in the right direction now.
FWIW; I’ve shot pistols/“Three Gun” for 35 years, was ranked “High Master” in Action Pistol/Bianchi Cup and “Master” USPSA- in the pre “Grand Master” days.
Although it has been years since I’ve formally shot competitively, I shoot regularly and do one on one tutorials- selectively. I am still a competent shooter.
The point? I STILL need to mentally rehearse the basics I tend to be weak in- before I shoot; “BIG” grip (control the gun), sight picture, trigger control, watch the effing reload IN the gun, etc…
The art of shooting is more a journey than a destination.
We all have goals we’d like to achieve; surviving a gunfight, placing first in a sectional, being a competent 1K yd. shooter- whatever. Goals are great motivators.
For me, this about steady improvement. I have yet to see anyone attain perfection.
Find a mentor/sensei. Perfect practice makes perfect.
Very true; and if it’s a destination, you don’t get to stay there for free if you get there. I’ve found shooting to be very much like any other sport (like weight training), where you might obtain a certain level of proficiency (or strength) at a certain point in time, but need to work to maintain it.