If anyone is willing, I’d be interested in hearing what was the most challenging weapons training course you have attended and why?
I would also like to hear opinions on what you think are the required elements of a training course.
Thanks
I have attended EAG and LMS defense courses and enjoyed them both greatly. I haven’t taken it yet but from what I hear Jeff Gonzales/trident concepts is difficult. It’s a pass fail course ie I think you get a did attend “cert” but only those that pass his standards get the completed course cert.
I’ve heard good things about all those you mentioned. Were they carbine, handgun or both?
3 day carbine (EAG
Pistol II (EAG
3 day carbine with night shoot (EAG
Shoot house (eag)
No low light (LMS)
Vickers 1911 centennial class. (more fun the. Hardcore class)
I think many would say that the most difficult courses in regards to accuracy requirements would be Vickers Advanced Pistol and Carbine classes.
To me though, the classes that really challenge my brain the most are the CQB classes that Vickers teaches at Blackwater. As if moving, shooting, identifying and finding targets in BW’s complex shoot house wasn’t hard enough, you attempt to impress “THE LAV” with your skillz. :sarcastic:
C4
Chuck Taylor’s Handgun Combat Master Class.
All weapon presentations were from the holster. Firearms and holster must be concealable "street" equipment. The test is as
follows:
STANDARD EXERCISES: 2 shots on torso (a 13" x 11" scoring area);
perform each once. Total of 80 pts.
1. 1 meter (m), Speed Rock, 1.0 second (sec)
2. 1 m, Step Back, 1.0 sec
3. 3 m, 1.0 sec
4. 7 m, 1.3 sec
5. 10 m, 1.7 sec
6. 15 m, 2.2 sec
7. 25 m, 2.7 sec
8. 50 m, 6.0 sec
SINGLES (Presentations): 1 shot on torso; perform each a total of five times. Total of 25 pts.
9. 7 m, 1.0 sec
PIVOTS and TURNS: 1 shot on torso; perform each a total of five times. Total of 75 pts.
10. 90 degree pivot to the right, 1.0 sec
11. 90 degree pivot to the left, 1.0 sec
12. 180 degree turn, 1.2 sec
MULTIPLE TARGETS: 1 shot on each as listed. All shot from 5 m.
Total of 45 pts. Targets are 1 m apart center to center.
13. 2 targets, 1.2 sec
14. 3 targets, 1.5 sec
15. 4 targets, 1.8 sec
HEAD SHOTS: 1 shot per command ,head zone of 4" x 3". Total of 45 pts.
16. 5 m, 1.0 sec. Perform a total of 4 times.
17. 7 m, 1.2 sec. Perform a total of 5 times.
AMBIDEXTROUS SHOOTING: 1 shot on each target. Total of 30 pts.
Time limit 6.0 sec. Perform once.
18. 7 m; candidate draws, fires 1 round at each of 3 targets spaced 1m apart, speed loads, transfers gun to weak hand, then fires 1 more shot at each target weak hand unsupported.
HOSTAGE SITUATIONS: 1 shot on each. Perform each a total of 5
times. Shot from 7 m. Total of 50 pts. Time limit: 1.2 sec
each.
19. Head shot on felon past left side of hostage's head. Perform a total of 5 times.
20. Head shot on felon past right side of hostages head. Perform a total of 5 times.
TARGETS AT ODD ANGLES: 60% obscured by cover. 1 shot each. Shot from 7 m. Perform each a total of five times. Total of 50 pts.
Time Limit: 1.2 sec each.
21. Target looking around right side of cover.
22. Target looking around left side of cover.
Next is the weapon handling phase.
SPEED LOADING; NO SHOOTING. LOADING ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times. 1.5 seconds each. Possible total deduction of 25 pts from shooting score.
TACTICAL LOADING. NO SHOOTING. LOADING ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times. 4.0 seconds each. Possible total deduction of 25 pts from shooting score.
MALFUNCTION CLEARANCE DRILLS. NO SHOOTING. CLEARANCE DRILLS ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times within time limits listed below. Possible total deduction of 75 pts from shooting score.
A. Position One (Failure to Fire): 1.0 sec
B. Position Two (Failure to Eject): 1.0 sec
C. Position Three (Feedway Stoppage): 4.0 sec
There you have it. There is a possible total of 400 pts. You must achieve 360 pts (90%) to pass. The penalties are as follows:
Shots are scored 5 points each for center hits, peripheral hits are 2 points for major calibers, 1 point for minor.
5 pts will be deducted from candidates score for each occurrence of the following offenses:
A. Premature start/"creeping"
B. Overtime shot. If caused by a malfunction and candidate properly clears it, no penalty will be assessed.
C. Hit on hostage or object designated as cover.
D. Overtime speed load, tactical load or malfunction
clearance.
I’d say it’s a pretty even race between MDFI close quarters or MDFI Handgun III. Close quarters offered up a TON of very new information…and as there was a lot of unsighted shooting (from retention, primarily) shooters had to be on top of their game 100%. It was very difficult mentally to process all the information and make sure I didn’t create any new holes in me or everyone else.
Handgun III was primarily single handed manipulations, including drawing, shooting, reloading and clearing malfunctions. Right handed stuff wasn’t too out there, but doing everything left handed was rather challenging…especially drawing the gun.
A solid runner up would be MDFI low light carbine. I had already done a couple low light handgun courses, but running the carbine was a completely different game. It became very difficult once darkness hit…I didn’t have troubles in the handgun courses, perhaps because I practice a lot more with my pistol. Clearing malfs on my rifle in dark started sucking, quick. Once again we had a very solid group of shooters so the MDFI crew ran us hard. Towards the end of the night it was getting pretty hectic and it was hard having to process all the information while being deprived of sight…was a great class, learned a ton.
Required elements of a firearms course? To learn something…\
Anything Gunsite.
The challenging part?
Not laughing, throwing up, falling asleep, and staying in a good mood.
I haven’t personally been to it but the Shivworks edged weapon and combatives course looks brutally demanding.
Henk Iverson’s Rifle Gun Fighting class. It’s the first class that I’ve ever gone to, and I didn’t get a cert of completion just attendance. I knew that was going to happen as soon as we got told what the final consisted of. Great class, just hard.
Physically wise it was a LE only rural operations course. 3-5 second rushes and low crawls are a young mans game. It was a good class, that was a great refresher on infantry tactics, but it was an a** kicker.
-Jenrick
Kyle Defoor’s standards are pretty brutal.
I’ve heard the Rogers Shooting School classes are among the most challenging, but I’ve not been.
Good replies (except one). How about military, police or other organizational courses?
Why does Gunsite get a bad press here?
I have never been and am curious.
Sorry for the OP side track.
Because they (among other schools) are about 15 years behind the times, and refuse to keep up with the evolution of current TTP’s.
I know I’m going to be swimming against the tide here, but I’m going to offer an alternative viewpoint on Gunsite.
I’m a recreational shooter who did some shooting when I was in junior high and high school, along with a little bird hunting, and then dropped it for thirty years. I’m not ex-military or LE. I got back into shooting a few years back when I had both the time and the financial resources to indulge in what can be an expensive hobby.
I’ve taken 4-5 defensive handgun and carbine courses which have been offered locally and decided to try a 5-day handgun course at Gunsite earlier this year. I enjoyed the hell out of it. Gunsite has a great facility, the instructor to shooter ratio was usually 1:2 when you were on the firing line so there was a lot of individual instruction, the instructors were professional, knowledgable, and engaged, and the facility staff were accommodating and terrific to deal with.
Was the instruction in the Handgun 250 course pretty basic? Sure. And working on my fundamentals was what I needed to do. Plus advice on equipment was readily available, there’s a well-stocked pro shop, and a gunsmith onsite who could quickly make modifications or adjustments short order. I changed out sights and the thumb safety on a 1911 and the gunsmith had my pistol back to me before I finished lunch.
I understand how many on this site who have more professional experience and advanced training would find it tedious, but I’m guessing there are more than a few folks that frequent this forum who got here looking for advice from people with a lot more experience than they have. Gunsite might provide a great experience for some of those folks and, while it might not be for everyone, the training there might be just what some people are looking for.
Sorry for wandering off topic but I suspect the title of this thread will attract plenty of people who are interested in training classes and not all of them are ready to be special forces operators. 
I attended a Gunsite A&I Vets 223 (5 Day) course back in 2005- ithe class was challenging, practical and relevant.
We shot all the way out to 300m, had runs through the shoot house and donga trail, fired from the inside of vehicles and engaged moving targets. Instructors actively sought feedback on how to make the course better.
I learned a lot and would do it again.
That so many current itinerant instructors got their start there should be noted. Only time will tell how many instructors from a similar facility like BW will still be around 20 years from now.
I took Jeff Gonzales Combative Carbine II. It’s a 3-day 2000-round course with graded accuracy evolutions. In the course I took, only two out of about 15 participants actually passed the course meeting his minimum requirements for scoring. I learned a lot, got credit for taking the course…hope to do better next time.
Good inputs from you guys. I guess I should put in my two cents worth. Most challenging I went through was Progressive Force Concepts Advanced Carbine. A couple of areas made it challenging; bilateral shooting and the malfunction drill portion because they really tried to add stress by yelling at you while you were performing. Students also had to clear about 7-8 weapons with different stoppages. Then we had to do it during night fire also. They also had a qualification in order to get their certificate.
Great learning experience for me. The class taught me a lot about what I could do.
The most challenging course I’ve attended has been Ernest Langdon’s Advanced Pistol Course. Ernest’s guiding philosophies were ‘No one stands still in a gunfight’ and ‘Proximity negates skill’. So we spent nearly the entire class shooting on the move, shooting moving targets and finally shooting moving targets on the move. These are skills you don’t get to practice every day, and my skills were pushed considerably during this course. But I also left the course far more confident in my abilities, as I was able to land effective hits on movers even while moving rather quickly.
ETA: I wrote an AAR on this course that I posted at another website and realized that I didn’t cross post here at M4C. I’ve remedied that for those interested - AAR now available here.
I second this. Not only was it most challenging, it was also most rewarding. I observed more skill gain in those two days than any other two (or three) day class I’ve taken, hands down.
It was a great combination of top notch teaching and top notch students which allowed us to accomplish so much. Highly recommended.