so today at work some of the medics and I were having a discussion about treating patients when they/we are off the clock. I was SHOCKED to hear what i was told, to an extent.
As everyone knows we, in the EMS field, work under medical control and a specific dr’s license.
Apparently, in my state, If a paramedic performs a non-“basic” intervention (ie: needle decompression) that medic can a) loose their license b) open themselves up to a lawsuit (which wouldn’t be covered by malpractice insurance) and c) open themselves up to possible criminal charges if things go south. which opens a whole nother can o’ worms for the untrained civilian who carries an ifak around with them.
The general consensus at my service is that the medics will keep on riding/moving if they see anything go south, if they can, and not intervene.
this bothers me. For me, i got in this field to help people, all the time, not just when i’m on the truck. to me, shit happens. as trained professionals we have a moral obligation to intervene as medically needed.
In many states, untrained civilians are protected by “Good Samaritan” laws that do not apply to professional emergency response individuals. It’s the main reason I got out of the lifeguard business in my early 20’s. Especially considering the amount of trim a beach lifeguard gets despite being slow witted and not particularly attractive by any definition, it was a tough life choice.
Actually, it depends on the state. Usually, instead of a simple negligence standard for liability, the standard rises to gross negligence/recklessness, even for a trained professional. I’m not sure which state you live in, but I would suggest reading the actual statute before arriving at a conclusion.
Further, you will have defenses of necessity and causation, if you decide to stick someone suffering from tension pneumothorax.
California is similar to this - Good Sam laws don’t cover trained professionals. But, yes, states vary. In general, anything over Red Cross basic first aid is essentially opening yourself up to problems, IMO. If you can argue that every Boy and Girl Scout would be able to do the same thing, you really negate the argument that you screwed up.
That being said, you don’t have a Duty to Act if you’re not identified as a health care provider. In other words, you don’t have to stop unless you have some huge glaring star of life on your car or something that screams EMS provider.
As an EMT-B I’ve stopped at several MVAs (MVC’s, TA’s, TC’s, whatever you call them). As a physician, hell no.
I’m not. The reality of the modern legal environment has made things much more complicated, expensive, and risky than they should be.
I had a much longer post for you, but it comes down to this: Do your own cost:benefit, and act according to what you feel obligated to do and what you’re willing to pay.
In Texas, the Good Samaritan laws cover professionals when they don’t have a professional duty to respond. There are some stipulations (Don’t take payment, no gross negligence ect) I’d really be supprised if most states didn’t have similar laws. . . . but Texas is probably the safest place (in terms of liability) to practice medicine.
I wouldn’t do anything you were not trained to do or weren’t comfortable doing.
Talk to a Medical defense lawyer. Most medical schools have some kind of jurisprudence course for their graduating seniors. You might try and see if you could tag along. (just an idea)
And that’s a sad thing to see…our nation becoming filled with more and more greedy people, just out looking to “get theirs” by whatever means possible…even if someones intentions were to save sometimes life, if something beyond their control went South, they’d open themselves up to an onslaught of lawyers and BS. Truly sad. People have good intentions but they are afraid to use them, “just in case” something can come back and bite them in the ass.
A few weeks ago I would have been shocked at this but I just finished up the class to get certified to get certified to teach ski patrolling stuff (yes, I had to pass a class to see if I could teach adult learners before being allowed to get trained to actually teach the classes) and this was gone over. Here in VA ski patrollers have sovereign immunity as long as they are volunteering. I’m hosed for the winter as I’m paid. During the summer anything I do, as long as I stick go NSP levels of care, I’m good to go.
Flip side of that is my wife who is an RN is had to get malpractice insurance on top of what the hospital she works at provides, just to be safe.
I know that most EMS agencies that have paid staff have insurance of some sort to protect medics as lo g as it wasn’t gross negligence.
Lots of variables and nuances. Talk to a lawyer specializing in this subject area in your court of jurisdiction. Buy yourself some liability insurance. Generally accepted universal principles:
Duty to act- No good sam. Includes volunteers if they have a statutory or employment duty to act.
Skills requiring credentialing or licensure- No good sam. You likely can’t do those outside of employment anyway.
Also… When stopping to help, consider announcing that you know first aid rather than you’re a (insert credential here). Perform BLS/first aid interventions, then fade silently away when other help has arrived.
In New York, you have to meet a couple criteria to be able to be sued successfully (for voluntary acts without expectation of monetary compensation, performed outside a hospital):
Must have duty to act,
Must have actually caused harm, through act or omission, to the patient through gross negligence.
The only way to rise to the level of gross negligence is to act outside your training level, or to do something that a “reasonable person” with your training wouldn’t do.
But so long as you do not actively cause harm through act or omission, you are good to go here.
it’s really said but all I do is call 911 and give ACCURATE information if someone hasn’t yet or is doing a terrible job of it… Really wish it wasn’t that way but “risk vs. reward.” No star of life on my vehicle or identifing myself on scene. If it’s my family or close friend then by all means do what I can. Again really sucks but heard to many horror stories.
This very issue has helped lead me to let my certification lapse. I don’t currently work in EMS, but I like having the skills ready if needed; but I don’t want to deal with the legal crap. I’ll keep the skills up and handy, but as a “joe civilian” I’m more likely to be covered by the law. Sad.
As a bystander providing CPR he is covered under a Good Samaritan law. As a certified professional he could be targeted by a litigation even if he provides it off duty. Letting cert lapse moves him from a latter category into former.
It is a sad state of things. Somebody told me of a case in Florida where a bystander CPR provided by a doc was observed by a malpractice attorney who actually counted compression to breath ratio and the doc was taken to a court…Of course, professional malpractice insurance doesn’t cover bystander CPR.
You know how there is always that CCW instructor or LEO who say some complete BS. . . . and those people tell other people and it becomes accepted as fact. Often times leading people to make unwise decisions.
I believe this subject is one such example. Yes, there is lots of litigation in medicine.
Now, the rules are very different between states. I’d recommend everyone talk to a defense attourney who works in their state. I HAVE talked to a defense attorney who specialized in defending MD’s. No, I’m not an expert, and I won’t give legal advice (so don’t take it as such).
I really doubt the Good Samaritan laws are that different in all the other 49 states in the union. I’ve made up my mind that if the person next to me at the supermarket, who in all likelyhood has neglected his hypertension, diabetes, and cholesterol, I’m going to do chest compressions and call for 911 and an AED. I’m not going to expose myself bodily fluids, but if they want to sue me for doing that. . . that is their moral problem, not mine. Besides, he joke is on them, I have no money.
I once watched a co-worker of mine jump into the Santa Cruz River during a monsoon storm to save two drowning aliens, as the Santa Cruz flows north from Mexico. When he went to the hospital to be checked out for all of the river water he ingested (think sewage and hepatitis). The service wouldn’t cover the medical bills. Same happened to another co-worker who gave mouth to mouth for 20 minutes to save another alien; “go pound sand”. I have seen people I work with sued by the “victims” for not giving enough/too much aid; doesn’t matter what you do in my line of work, the public is not satisfied. Hence, my philosophy is, if you aren’t my partner, on my team in blue, or a loved one; vaya con Dios, I have no obligation to you. I’ll make a call but beyond that, you’re on your own.
