Meaningless musing on "over-penetration"

General Firearms Terminal Ballistic Information
1

I’m sure you won’t find this particularly insightful, helpful, or informative but I’ll throw it out anyway…
(Sorry gentlemen, but it’s late, I’m at work, and my mind is wandering…)

-Self defense shooting:
Victim is approached by a large, fit young man armed with a handgun who demands money. It is well known that robbers in this area commonly shoot their victims, even when they are completely cooperative.
Victim quickly produces a 9mm handgun and fires a single shot, striking the perpetrator slightly left of his left nostril. The perpetrator immediately collapses straight down, striking the back of his head on a concrete parking block he falls on.

-Autopsy:
The non-bonded 115gr 9mm JHP is found to have separated shortly after penetrating the facial bones and entering the sinus cavity. Both core fragments and the jacket then separately strike the base of the skull where it joins the spine, producing a single small crack . This impact is enough to cause a jolt to the mid-brain, knocking the perpetrator unconscious.
While unconscious, the perpetrator dies as a result of cerebral hemorrhage caused by the impact of striking his head on the concrete parking block as he fell….

Long story short: had it not been for the parking block, perpetrator may well have had only a very nasty non-life-threatening wound.

Shot placement was acceptable. Caliber was adequate. The bullet, however, failed to penetrate as expected. This incident could have had a very deferent ending.

I understand the overly liability conscious concern of LE administrations about the issue of “over-penetration” but I am concerned that perhaps too much emphasis is placed there.
It has been my observation that the vast majority of terminal ballistic failures squarely lie upon the failure of the bullet to even reach a vital target. Misses happen, even to the very best, but lack of penetration is all too common.

As I posted on the thread at Glock Talk, I have first hand knowledge of only a single case in 16 years where bullets over-penetrating a suspect struck an innocent party - and fortunately the “innocent party”, a police officer, was not injured.

Unfortunately I have seen many cases of people struck by bullets that missed their intended target. I have also documented lethal force encounters where the “bad guy” was struck, but not stopped from his attack due (at least in part) to lack of sufficient penetration of striking bullets.
Certainly this is an issue of expectation, as some forms of cover/concealment/protection can be expected to stop bullets or limit their penetration. I, however, still want the most penetration I can achieve in my chosen caliber, whatever that might be.

If the bullet doesn’t get there, nothing else matters!

My conjecture is simple. Until we achieve 100% accuracy, over-penetration should be a moot point. If we are in such a situation that warrants gunfire, regardless of the danger posed by missing, then terminal performance should be more paramount than what will happen if the bullets go all the way through….

2

As LE under Graham v. Connor and Tennessee V. Garner you are accountable for every round your fire. By extension so is your agency/department, city/county/municipality, etc. Not everyone has a bottomless cash reserve to handle the lawsuits so bureaucrats do have to worry about little things like over-penetration.

3

once again, we’re down to a question of reducing the effectiveness of our weapons for sake of possibly (unlikelily) striking bystanders with over-penetrated rounds.

if bullets are flying, everyone in the vicinity is in danger. a missed round from a cool load is going to do more damage than a hot round, probably deformed, expanded, and now tumbling, exiting some asshole’s back. you just cant avoid danger, so why make it more dangerous for yourself?

i’m on board, Looking.

4

Agreed.

But, my first concern will be my back stop if I miss. I have certainly been in situations where use of my handgun was justified but not possible due to what (more specifically who) was behind the perpetrator (a recent night club shooting comes to mind…).

Legally, Officers use their weapons to stop perpetrators who pose an immediate threat of death or great bodily harm to them or others. When that decision is made weighing the totality of circumstances stopping the perpetrator is the overriding concern.
Everyone who uses a gun is responsible for every round they fire.
I will do my part on ensuring my shot (aim and clear backstop), I expect my rounds to do their job on reaching the target!

…certainly don’t want to be responsible for death or great bodily injury to myself or others as a result of failing to stop said perpetrator.

5

And it still amazes me the numbers who find quarterly weapons quals an inconvenience to their schedules. When it is all about making sure that they have at least a basic proficiency to avoid the situation you illustrate.

6

I am a somewhat proficient Martial Artist who has practiced some form of martial art as far back as I can remember, even into early childhood (my father was a Moo Duk Kwan/Tang Soo Do instructor).
I have fought in many tournaments as well as many “actual fights”. I use my hands and feet, just as you do, everyday. And yet, during fights, I have on more than one occasion “failed to connect” with kicks and hand strikes… items (hands & feet) that I am literally attached to and use all day, every day.

If you can miss at less than arms length with a punch (and you can) how in the round world can people not understand that no matter what your proficiency level, skill, amount of practice, or mental preparation it is possible to miss in a gun fight?

I am not saying that you should not practice - I also have participated in various shooting sports since my early teens and love shooting. Of course practice will give you a tremendous edge. Of course more time should be spent on the range, in building clearing, in the shoot house, in all aspects of CQB…

Why do people get offended at the very real likelyhood that in a fast paced, totally unexpected, life-or-death struggle you gasp might miss?

That is the type of false over-confidence that allows people to not even consider what’s behind their target…

7

As noted above, failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if the handgun bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and your opponent may remain a lethal threat to you or the person(s) you are defending.

Conversely, if your bullet completely penetrates the criminal who is attacking you and exits downrange, your bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock–the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.

Officers and civilian bystanders have extraordinarily infrequently been injured and killed by bullets which penetrated through a criminal. A case with which I am personally familiar occurred in October 1989, when a .38 SP 125 gr + P bullet went through a felon and killed a Philadelphia police officer. My wound ballistics mentor during my Residency training, Col. Martin Fackler, testified in this case; he documented the incident in: Fackler ML. “The Ideal Police Bullet” International Defense Review, Internal Security and CO IN Supplement. 11/90:45-46. There are a few other incidents of “overpenetration/underexpansion”, but the documentation for the case above is in an open source and is easily available.

Nonetheless, given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect typically range between 10 to 17% of shots fired, I suspect that the we should worry more about the 85% or more of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 15% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits in a fashion which still poses a hazard.

In short, under-penetration is far more likely to get you or those you are defending killed than over-penetration.

8

Well, at least the thread title is correct.

9

I wonder if the outcome would have changed, in the Miami FBI firefight, if Platt was hit with a 9MM FMJ instead of the 9MM W-W Silvertip JHP.

As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Dove’s 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

10

Based on the bullet trajectory from autopsy, there is a high likelihood that if the bullet fired by SA Dove had penetrated four inches deeper, it would have penetrated Platt’s heart/aorta…

11

My agency conducted a 10 year study of all shots fired by officers, to include felons, animals, and accidental discharges. It was broken down by age, years of experience, time of day, weather conditions, lighting, distance, and total rounds fired.

I can say that our “hit ratio” was significantly higher. The numbers were close to those published by NYPD. But with that said, even if you are dealing with that magical Department. One who is smaller and has the ability to extensively train their officers to such an extent that their hit ratio is only 10%, I would argue that the missed rounds represent a much more substantial liability issue than rounds that might over penetrate.

If choosing duty ammo/carry ammo, I would be first concerned with performance and reliability. Adequate penetration being a significant factor in my definition of performance. You don’t have to worry about being sued in civil court if you are dead.

12

“My agency conducted a 10 year study of all shots fired by officers, to include felons, animals, and accidental discharges. It was broken down by age, years of experience, time of day, weather conditions, lighting, distance, and total rounds fired.”

It is great when agencies collect such useful data; were those results ever published? I have seen data from individual agencies documenting hit ratios in the 35-65% range, but have yet to see national statistics demonstrating such high success rates.

If anybody has such data, please post it!

13

No, I do not think the study was published. The Range master tasked with complying the study for our command staff is a friend. I read his report. Couple of things came out as surprising.

His staff contacted various agencies that had conducted similar studies. Only NYPD was willing to provide a copy of their study for comparison. Other agencies would talk on the phone about their study and it’s results, but were not permitted to share a copy.

I was told that his staff contacted Quantico, to inquire about the data used to come up with the % widely associated with shots fired/engagement distance involved with LEO shootings. The FBI staff contacted were unable to determine where the figures come from.

I will look into whether I am able to post the report w/o risking reproductions. (Sorry guys, I can’t risk my job currently, and it wouldn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out who it was who posted this report.) Knowing our Command staff, I seriously doubt I will be able to.

I do remember that our average engagement distance was 11.3 yards. Our average shots fired (by both parties) was 8 rounds. Our hit ration was within a few % points of NYPD’s, either way, of shots fired against animals attacking, and of humans. We were higher by a couple of points on one and behind by a couple points on another. I can’t remember the exact %'s, so I will not post them, but they were much higher than the 10% - 17% figure.

14

According to published NYPD SOP-9 data (http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf), NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. On the other hand, the article states Portland PD hit with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Metro-Dade had hit ratios ranging from 15.4-30% from 1988-1994, and Baltimore reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.

15

So, it would be safe to assume that agencies would see a greater cost/benefit if they invested more money in teaching their officers to shoot more accurately than in worrying about ballistics of duty ammunition (namely over-penetration)?

I’ve been privy to some of the gun/cartridge malarkey that has gone on with my local department because one of my former professors is a reserve captain and consultant. They spent almost $100,000 a few years ago to determine if they needed a new load/duty weapon. They kept the same weapon (Glock 22, mistake in my opinion because they’ve already had 4 range ka-booms), but switched loads from Federal HS to Winchester Ranger SXT. That seemed like an awful lot of money to spend for a small agency only to replace the duty load (and in a seemingly lateral fashion). I remember commenting that they should have spent that money on increased training and qualification, but didn’t really have anything to substantiate my opinion… …Not that they would listen to me anyway, as I don’t work for the agency, only know a lot of people working for it.

16

Guys I have to disagree with you on this. Over penetration has to be a concern. We need to be sure that if we do our part the bullet will do it’s while not endangering innocents. The new catch phrase in lawsuits is Deliberate Indifference. I think not worrying about the round over penetrating it’s target and striking an innocent comes under this term and the plaintiffs attorney will make a big deal of it. If an innocent is harmed by one of our rounds we are going to pay something for that. It’s a fact of life. But it could be the difference between the plaintiff asking for just damages or going for punitive damages.

I work in the armored car industry. By its very nature we are constantly in a environment rich in innocent bystanders, shopping centers, malls, department stores etc. As a certified law enforcement firearms instructor as well as an administrator it turns my hair gray thinking about it. Let me give you a couple of examples of over penetration being a concern.

August 6, 1996, Deptford Mall, Deptford, NJ - An armored car guard is shot in the back while leaving a bank located in the mall. He returned fire killing one of his attackers. One of his bullets ricocheted off a wall struck a teen aged girl in the head and continued on to bury it’s self in a wall. The girl died of her injuries. While not advertised I learned later that it was thought that before ricocheting the bullet had struck the robber and was a though & through shot. The bullet in question was an 180 grain FMJ .40 S&W. Scary stuff.

We all know that the NYPD was historically resistant to issuing hollow points even though their highly respected Firearms Training Unit strongly recommended them. It was only after a New York newspaper reported that the majority of friendly fire incidents happened because the bullet passed through the assailant and then struck another officer that they started the switch to hollow points. I think I remember the percentage to be between 60 & 70 percent. I would have to dig the article up to be sure. I have it here somewhere in my library.

One of the few firearms related benefits of living in the state of NJ is that if I am ever questioned in a lawsuit concerning my choice of bullets, I can point straight to the state capitol and say go sue them. Only active sworn law enforcement can carry hollow points in this state. Everyone else face a serious felony charge, including retired law enforcement.

17

Can you carry EFMJ?

18

The Europeans never seemed concerned with a lack of effectiveness with 9MM FMJ. However, they were concerned about overpenetration.

The designs they brought forth were basically bullets equipped with brakes.
Their designs went with lighter than normal/ higher velocity bullets that blunted their points on impact.

I guess due to humanitarian concerns, they didn’t want massive expansion with sharp talons sticking out. It is true that those designs cut more and behave in a similar manner to the razor sharp broadheads that bow hunters use. But bow hunters must kill game in order to harvest it. Bleedout stops deer after they run some distance. Waiting for your attacker to bleedout can be hazardous to your health.

I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of handgun owners do not plan on eating their attacker. The handgun’s mission is to stop the threat. Can we design FMJ or limited expansion bullets that bring out all of the effectiveness that a handgun bullet can realistically produce? I don’t know, but, we don’t have to kill an adversary every time in order to stop the threat.

19

Yes, when you can find it and if it is available in your caliber. For various reasons I will not get into here we carry revolvers. Federal has yet to design a EFMJ for that caliber. Their loss because I feel that would be a profitable offering if they choose to do so.

20

that’s what less-lethal weapons are for.

unfortunately, the same types of things that cause immediate incapacitation are also the same things that cause death. guns are for killing… if killing is a problem, use a different weapon.