As I stated at the top of this thread, they use better materials which translates into them lasting longer (less PM’s). This is generally the same reason why we go to CS springs for our extractor and buffer.
C4
How often do you replace the existing three-piece ring setup? Is the McFarlnd really that big of an advantage?
The CS spring argument to me makes a lot more sense – longer lifetime and much greater consistency in performance across it’s life. But given that a
weapon will run with a single ring in a three-ring setup, you have double redundancy built into the design. And the replacement test is simple to perform, so it’s not as if diagnosing when rings need repalcement is difficult.
I’m not knocking McFarlnd rings, but to me it sounds more like a convenience justification than a performance justification, that’s all.
If I remember correctly, proper PM’s are supposed to be done on gas rings (cheap ones) every 3K. The same goes with cheap extractor and buffer springs.
Yes, a weapon will work with a single gas ring, but no one does that on purpose because it isn’t the most reliable way to run your weapon.
I view the McFarland as a convenience thing as well (less PM’s). I don’t know about you, but I forget to do proper PM’s on my weapon so having components that don’t need to be changed out as often (or if at all) are big plus one in my book.
I would also like to state, that I could care less if anyone buys the McFarland gas rings from me. I bought them so I can add them to my bolts.
C4
I suspect the McFarland would be less prone to having an end break off of it.
And as far as regular rings go, I visuallyy inspect and see if the carrier will collapse over the bolt under its own weight. I have had gas rings go well beyond the 3K interval, much beyond it. And you do have some reserve capacity so if one fails, you have time to fix it later.
I strongly suspect agressive full auto fire greatly shortens their life as well as very short barreled carbines and AR pistols.
I also keep the inside of the bolt carrier well lubed and that seems to do more to keep the rings alive than anything else.
Grant- why are you stating that Dean changed buffers on his department guns? Do you have the source for that or is it an assumption?
You may want to reconsider what you state as fact on this.
Hey Pat, the info came from Paul (which he posted in this thread) and is what I went off of. I thought it strange as well that they would alter a Factory weapon (especially for LE work).
Submariner: Did you stop reading after the first sentence? His department seems to think Colt Commandos with standard buffers, Colt action springs and gas rings are sufficient for their needs. They don’t use model 1 products. They also don’t see the need for H, H2, H3, 9mm buffers, CS action springs or McFarland gas rings. People other tham me asked these questions in class (except for the CS spring issue which I asked in class.) Why? He said they tested these things and found out what worked made those carbines run best.
C4
ee
His department seems to think Colt Commandos with standard buffers, Colt action springs and gas rings are sufficient for their needs.
That is what was stated in class (from my contemporaneous notes, not memory): standard carbine buffers, Colt action springs and gas rings. Given all the bandwidth prior to that time (July 2006) on heavier buffers and such for short barrels, his statement was noteworthy. (ETA: So I made a note of it. He did not state, nor do I recall anyone asking, how the guns came from the factory. I corroborated this with two other people who were actually there. Could it be that is how they came from the factory? Could they have been purchased some time ago? Since you are talking to Dean, you might ask him.)
I think your recollection on periodicity of checking the gas rings is is faulty. Here is the TM: TM9-1005-319-23. Check out Section 2-7 dealing with Preventive Maintenance Checks and Services. PM’s are Quarterly, not every 3000 rounds. (Crane hasn’t finished its shot counter yet.) While a good idea, it requires the user to maintain a gun book. And that notion, also very good, is not a requirement of the TM. So they schedule it quarterly.
OK, copy on all Paul and Grant.
I speak w/ Dean about daily. I just had a telcon with him a few minutes ago.
He has stated that he has never changed the buffers. His patrol rifle program is 11 years old (and may be one of the most successful in the country- how many cops on motorcycles have a Commando mounted?).
That may account for the information confusion.
I have first hand knowledge of his program (and more importantly, the results) and can talk about the quality of the arms and the training (as recently as last weekend).
I take Dean’s word as an authority on this stuff but am of course open minded about a lot- as is he. I have worked with Dean for about 10 years now, and consider him an SME.
Plus he is a genuine gunfighter…
Roger Pat. The next time you talk to him, please ask him what buffers they are running in their 11.5’s. I would be curious to know as we now have two different opinions on what they run.
Side note, Commando’s on Motorcycles??? 
Would love to see a pic of that going down the road!
C4
Which 300 series CRES (Corrosion-REsistant Steel)? 321? Heat-treated to what temper?
Sheet metal? You do realize that 3xx CRES comes in sheet form? Sheet is a material form, like rod, bar, plate… Sheet form is not necessarily “cheap” or inferior. It may, in fact, be the logical choice for a part. Sheet-metal parts may also be heat-treated and otherwise processed to meet requirements. Best-value designs utilize cost-effective materials and manufacturing processes AS APPROPRIATE. If more-expensive materials and/or processes are required to meet requirements, then they are appropriate. However, if less-expensive materials and/or processes meet the requirements, then the customer gets a less-expensive product and/or the manufacturer enjoys a higher profit margin.
Now if one product form allows greater reliability or service life (increased requirements) than that allowed by another, then additional material or processing cost may be justifiable.
Are the McFarland gas rings more reliable? Do they last longer? Has anyone actually documented any testing to verify this? I read on the errornet that the SOPMOD kit that included the Crane O-ring and 5-coil extractor spring also included the McFarland gas rings. Is this still the case? Can anyone share test data with us that might demonstrate that these parts are indeed superior?
Stock buffers Grant. I saw that this weekend.
Yup, every vehicle has a Commando. He has it set up so that they can sling up and deploy from the car.
The bike look great with the Commandos, and the use policy is dead on.
His program pre dates the N. Hollywood incident. He was a clear thinker.
So you trust Pat to get it correct from Dean but not Submariner?
From what I have been told, Colt M4’s are now being issued with H2 buffers and I have seen 6920’s come with them as well. The 6520 I have in the shop currently has an H buffer. So I would think that the 11.5’s would come with at least an H or H2.
As far as the 3K, that number is useful or you can do quarterly PM’s (doesn’t really matter what you do as long as you do something).
C4
I trust the person that contacts Dean and replies back to this thread with what he said.
It is 100% possible that the 11.5’s are issued with carbine buffers. This would mean that BOTH Pat and Paul are correct.
C4
I am not anal enough to ask them which of the 300 series SS they were using (sorry).
I asked them about standard gas rings and what they thought. Their comment to me was that they were cheap sheet metal so take it for what its worth.
My POV on the subject is that if you have ever taken your gas rings off, they are VERY flimsy and cheap feeling items. If you have ever handled the McFarland rings, you would have the exact opposite opinion. That is the easiest way for me to describe it.
I have seen early Crane upgrade kits with the McFarland Gas rings. I don’t know if they still include them or not though.
C4
Roger Pat that is interesting to say the least. Do you know if the 11.5’s were stock Colt’s?
I believe I read on Advanced Armament’s web site that they recommended heavy buffers for supressed Commando’s. A can of course does increase back pressure, but not enough to warrant an H3 buffer though.
C4
As I posted on Grant’s FN B&C discussion, I don’t think the McFarland gas rings are an improvement.
As far as I’m concerned, they fall into the “excellent solution to a non-existent problem” category.
In my experience they add additional drag (friction) to the system and the only payoff is the marginally better gas seal that’s not really needed. After a couple of hundred rounds without additional lube they start to bind and drag more than standard gas rings. Perhaps this is a function of the coiled ring being fouled and increasing tension, but I don’t know for sure. I know that’s what they did in my experience. (Mil-spec parts and good lube, BTW)
I know I dumped mine for standard gas rings that are easy to check for wear, are inexpensive to replace, function fine, and last long enough.
Just my experience- YMMV.
As for Commando buffers…
We have a total of one, early 90’s vintage, and it has a standard buffer. Many, many thousands of rounds and I can’t ever remember a malfunction.
A properly built and maintained Commando (or M4, M16, etc.) shouldn’t need anything special to work correctly.
The McFarland gas ring might not be an upgrade (I think it is simply for the materials used). The other kicker is that they aren’t any more expensive than standard gas rings. I also don’t think they will need as much replacing as standard rings do either.
All AR’s will run with a car buffer. What we are seeing though is a trend with manufacturers using heavier buffers (like when Colt went from H buffers to H2 buffers in the M4 and 6920). There is a reason for this.
C4
Does anyone know how Ken Elmore sets up his Commando’s?
I’ve used Mcfarland gas rings on both a 16" carbine and 20" rifle for years with no problems whatsoever. If you think/feel you need them go ahead, otherwise standard rings work.