Check out this article:
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/06/marine_m4_carbine_070625/
The Marine Corps had shunned the M4 because the 20" barrel is favored for rifle quals with iron sights at 500 yds. The M9 is about useless and the M16 full length is awkward for quick in and out of Humvees and MOUT scenarios.
Im glad they are getting them but its a kick in the balls to the lower paygrades.
This is just my opinion, but I think the Marine Corps is holding off on the M4 because of the money, not the 500 yard line at the range. The whole sour grapes thing. I’m still waiting for the parts to convert my A2’s to A4’s.
It makes sense, good move (this from someone who carried an A2 exclusively).
That “expert” rifle score (along with a first class PFT score) is still sooo important to the advancement process for enlisted Marines through E-5, and of course their rifle qual range includes 10 shots prone with only iron sights at 500 yds. I think the adoption of the M4 for SNCOs and officers is probably more of a recognition that the M9 pistol is almost useless in Iraq.
As an FMF Corpsman in Iraq in 2005, I carried both an M16A2 (my Marines had the A4 with the rail system, pistol grips, and ACOGs, but I “just” the Doc) and the M9 pistol plus 10 rifle mags and 4 pistol mags. I would have loved to traded both for an M4 carbine, and I’m glad to see any move the marines make in that direction.
Thats kickass. But what about the lower pay grades who are jumping in and out of Humvees? I guess they are just shit out of luck with a quick exit out of a vehicle. I guess " career enlisted Marines and officers " get out first.
I’m interested to see if this is gonna affect my TO weapon. Right now I carry an M9 while I stand duty at work in the armory. I can say from past experience that it sucks to have to carry an M16 around while trying to issue weapons, and perform scheduled maintnance, the M9 is more conveniant in that aspect. This is in garrison though.
It’s funny that you say that, because according to Marine Corps customs and courtesies that is the right way to exit a vehicle.
I hope I didn’t piss any off. I’m not knocking on Officers but I think the M4 should be passed around. I’ve been talking with my buddy over there and hes a Gunny and hes carrying a M4. But they are still searching and cleaning out mud huts.
So, will the M4 become a target indicator for the jihadis?
Guess I should clarify, I really did think that was funny.
I don’t think it’ll be any more of a target indicator than someone pointing and throwing out orders. I’d like to see a complete changeover to M4’s. It would be easier on me to transport large numbers of those than M16’s.
Bingo.
When I was a Plt Sgt I carried an A2, so did the Lts. No one wanted to stand out from anyone else not to mention the rifle was much more useful.
Everyone in the company carried rifles.
Why on earth would you give a doorkicker an A4 and the Lt. an M4?
I feel the same about this as I do about giving the officers a M9 to compliment their rifles, but leaving SAW gunners stuck without a back-up and an open bolt as their primary (especially when the SAW gunners are in the stack).
Interesting point.
Shark31,
Completely agree with you. I think the following story best illustrates that point.
From SOCNET. I’ll reserve comment regarding .45 vs 9mm. Also, handgun ammo regardless of caliber doesn’t work like what is depicted in the movies. It almost often takes multiple well placed shots to often convince the SOB that he is dead.
As an aside the Marine Corps wants to replace pistols with M4 Carbines, but as the example below shows, Marines and Soldiers need both. One is none, two is one. Like ammo, you can never have enough firearms in a gunfight.
Recent OIF SEAL operation left one SEAL KIA and 2 others injured – 1 very severely. We always hear the sad stories about fatalities in the war, so I thought it would be nice to share one focused about the survivor.
For obvious OPSEC and PERSEC reasons, I won’t state the Team nor the full names of the men in this particular operation. I will state that the injured man’s name is Doug and we will leave it at that.
The Team was tracking a targeted insurgent who had apparently fired an RPG at a US helicopter. The Team was clearing a house when Doug and his buddy kicked in a door and ran right in on 4 hadji’s with AK-47’s who immediately opened fire on the 2 men.
Doug’s partner was KIA almost instantly. It happened so quickly they did not even have time to react to the 4 awaiting bad guys. It is amazing Doug was able to survive. In the initial hail of gunfire, Doug had his M4 shot out of his hands and lost part of his finger. This happened before he was even able to fire a shot. Since it happened so quickly, there was no opportunity to take cover and Doug played this one by the book. Instead of running and ducking for cover, realizing he lost his M4, he drew his 9mm sidearm. Doug was shot 17 times with AK47 fire!! 3 shots hit the SAPI plate on his body armor in the chest and they were deflected. 12 rounds went through his body (entered and exited soft tissue areas)! 1 round went in between his 2 testicles (talk about someone looking out for you) – due to this round he cannot have kids anymore, but his “boys” are safe. The final round hit the bottom of his SAPI plate and entered and lodged into his lower abdomen. He has a temporary colostomy bag while healing but no permanent damage thank God.
Now in the midst of this barrage of gunfire sustained by Doug, he still managed to draw his sidearm and with 18 rounds of 9mm ammunition he managed to eliminate ALL 4 bad guys. That shows what a determined SEAL is capable of doing with proper training. Keep in mind – 18 rounds he needed to take them all out and the magazine holds 15. That means he had to do a magazine exchange during the fight! And this all happened with Doug in the middle of an ambush with a KIA teammate, himself trapped inside a doorway getting sprayed with automatic gunfire and returning fire with a pistol. With the 9mm pistol he said it took numerous shots to take down each bad guy. One f*&$%r he had to finally take down with a headshot. And this all went down before the rest of the Team closed in on this exact position. They were in other areas of the clearing area and courtyard searching for bad guys as well.
Doug was evacuated and spent 2 days at Walter Reed. He then took convalescent leave to spend some time with his wife and family after this very close call. Before he was discharged from Walter Reed and sent on his leave, Admiral Olsen wanted to meet with him and to pin his awards on him.
While speaking with Admiral Olsen and the Teams Senior Chief, Doug tells them that he wants to get back to the Team as soon as possible or at least do something at Little Creek as an advanced instructor. Admiral Olsen thought for a moment and then told Senior Chief to schedule Doug as soon as possible to attend firearms training. Doug was confused and immediately pointed out that he had already attended all the basic and advanced firearms training and was even an instructor for advanced handgun training for some of the East Coast Teams. So Admiral Olsen replied, “Well young man, I guess you’re gonna have to go back as a student because I understand you killed 4 bad guys during the firefight but you had to do a magazine exchange…aren’t there 15 rounds in the magazine and why if you had so many rounds in the weapon did it take you that many rounds to put down the bad guys? Obviously, you need to go back for some refresher training.” Doug was (needless to say) stunned and it took everyone in the room a few minutes before they realized Admiral Olsen was just f*&^%$g with him. Admiral Olsen does have a sense of humor.
This is why, if our nation is not sold out by the elite appeasers in government, the media, Hollywood and industry, that we will not be beaten by the Islamic scum…because of men like Doug.
Sad that Doug’s Brother was KIA but this situation was an excellent triumph. Thanks for sharing and good writing. I’ve got a great visual of the event. Send that shit to CNN, it’ll never see the light of day there but lets them know our boys are fighting the good fight. Thanks!
Marines I worked with had the A4, Company CDR had M4 as did 1SG. BC carried a Benelli. Plt CDRs had A4s and M9s.
I don’t think it is anymore of a target indicator than a sidearm or number of antenna on a vehicle.
The idea is that officers and NCOs do better leading than being just another rifleman.
In my uneducated opinion, give them all M4s. I think the Marines are some of the best riflemen in the world (primarily because they train to be shooters moreso than we did in the Army), and should still be able to make hits, whether holding a 14.5" barreled rifle or a 20" barreled rifle.
One of Murphy’s Laws of Combat states:
“Never look conspicuous. It draws fire.” 
Then give the officers the musket if they aren’t going in buildings.
IIRC the USMC in the late 80’s wanted the then XM4 to be an option for people typically issued pistols as with all previously used carbines. The M4 was never meant to replace a rifle, hence it’s name M4 carbine. At the time it had 85% of the same parts as a M16A2 (both had A2 uppers then). At that time IIRC the US Army didn’t want the then XM4 carbine either.