I have read in several posts (here and elsewhere) that a few companies manufacturer a majority of parts for other companies. For example CMT makes lowers for Stag, BCM, RRA, Noveske, S&W, Wilson, and some Colts. I understand that my information may be outdated and that Manufacturers change suppliers, however based on the concept that high end manufactures use the same suppliers and mid level suppliers here is my question. What does a high end manufacturer do to their items (lowers for example) that mid level manufacturers do not? What makes them more desirable, other than rolling their name on it? What does BCM do that Stag doesn’t? I am not trying to debate that BCM (for example) is just a Stag (for example) re-stamped. I am trying to get a better understanding of what sets any two manufacturers that use the same supplier apart. Can anyone help me be better informed?
Well you could compare BCM and Vulcan/Hesse/Blackthorne. They both buy components from suppliers but that’s where any similarity ends.
BCM has high standards and ensures any components they sell meet or exceed their standards. You can feel pretty darn good about anything you buy from BCM. Vulcan, on the other hand, buys bottom of the barrel parts from any source they can dredge up. The parts could even be parts rejected by DPMS! Some of the parts could come from the same supplier but think about it - in manufacturing there are different levels of quality and testing. Think of tools for example, the same supplier often sells different levels of quality. Buy the cheap tool then use it hard and you’re gonna bust it and your knuckles!
Anyway, no matter what you read, there are different quality parts out there.
good point! So if I understand what you are saying is that the same supplier will sell the same part to several different companies, however company A gets the highest quality parts and company B gets the next highest, and so on all the way down to company C who gets the lowest quality. Is it the supplier that determines the quality and ships them or does the manufacturer keep the highest quality and discards the rest?
BTW, you mentioned lowers and it is true that there aren’t that many forges supplying receivers but the final finishing is what really differentiates the receiver. Look for flared magwells and properly drilled holes. Usually the hammer, trigger, pivot and takedown pin holes are correct but I have occasionally seen the trigger guard and buffer retainer holes improperly placed.
Your info is outdated.
If we are JUST talking about lowers, there isn’t all the much to get excited about ASSUMING that all the holes are the correct size and it has the proper anodizing. With that said, the roll mark on the lower signifies to the consumer that they are either getting a quality firearm or subpar firearm. So a BCM AR15 will be considered BETTER than a Stag AR15 because of what is inside it (LPK, RE, upper, barrel, BCG, etc).
With that said, certain roll marks on lowers are just “cooler” than others. So you will always have people that will buy on this fact alone.
C4
If two different carpenters (one who’s awesome, and one who sucks) use the exact same lumber from Home Depot to build the exact same house design, does that mean that both houses are going to be of equal quality when they’re finished?
Who knows? Everyone has their own rules. But you can take it to the bank that vendors like BCM go to great lengths to find quality parts. And if you ever have a problem with their product they will make it right. Can you say the same for others, who knows?
As far as manufacturers, parts sometimes are “binned” according to quality, material and testing. The better parts are sent to customers who demand them.
great point (probably the best). the reason for my question is that i hear arguments all the time that product A sucks and product B is the best, however there is never any good reason for the statement.
There are plenty of good reasons! I’d say it’s time for you to start reading the forum stickys.
Here’s a good one to start with:
AR Technical Discussion FAQ/Knowledge Base Threads
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7009
Grant also has an excellent thread that illustrates all the pains he had to go to in order to correct various problems in a shipment of Bushmasters a while back. It really gets to the heart of the matter of what’s different between BM and BCM (besides the C).
If a lower is in spec it will work, like grant stated some like different rollmarks. Yes I’m going cheesy with this, it’s what’s inside that counts.
Anybody with the right tools can set up a computer to cut parts, its who gets those parts and makes sure they are of the upmost quality before they put them in something that contains an explosion and high pressure that matters.
Its always the level of quality that a company will expect or let pass that determines how good the product is.
Just because the same machine shop makes a part for two different companies doesn’t mean that the parts are made the same.
Company A will buy bolts from Max’s machine shop and specify that it’s made from Carpenter 158 steel, HP and MPI tested and the carriers are shot peened 8620.
Company B will spec 4150 steel for the bolt, batch test, or skip the MPI entirely.
Company C will spec 9620 steel for the bolt and batch test, and have their logo engraved on the carrier.
All are made by Max’s machine shop, but all three are still very different.
Remember when Del-Ton had problems with bolts breaking and they said it was because their supplier slipped in bolts with the wrong steel? That’s what happened. Another of their supplier’s customers specced something like 4150 and it was mixed into Del-Ton’s (and other’s) orders.
It happens with other things besides bolt and carriers.
Everyone knows that FN makes a lot of barrels for other companies. Those are all pretty much the same as FN doesn’t turn out crap. However one of the large firearm makers, not known for their rifles makes a LOT of AR barrels for different companies. A lot of house brands. Three different twist rates, light, heavy, M4 contours, stainless or 4140.
Not just in the firearms industry. I had a buddy that worked at a plant in Ohio that made gears. Some went to Honda, some to Ford. Each made differently according to customer desires.
On the subject of barrels, dont forget that in many, if not, most cases, it is actually the client that finishes them, on top of the fact that some of them order them to their spec to begin with. Companies like DD and FN merely supply blanks.
Thanks to all the above posters. Some very good explanation and articulation there.
A friend shared this analogy with me: A brand new Yugo on the showroom floor looks like any other new car doesn’t it? Its got four wheels, pretty paint and a gas pedal. When you turn the key, it fires up, and you can drive it from point A to point B, can’t you? Why would anyone spend the extra money for a Toyota or a Honda, just because some people that say they are better?
Yes yes.
Or how about…do you expect the same level of quality out of a Chevy Aveo as a Cadillac Escalade? GM makes them both. Same quality, right?
That’s not bad either.
I get what your trying to say but you help illustrate my question. A Chevy Aveo and Escalade while Marketed by the same company do not use the same parts. The Chevy Aveo also known as Daewoo Kalos, Holden Barina, Pontiac Wave, Suzuki Swift in different parts of the world, however same car and do use the same parts. A better example is what is the better vehicle, a GMC Danali and Cadillac Escalade. If you ask a die hard Caddy fan they would say the Escalade and have a ton of BS facts to back it up when in reality the only difference are the badges. I understand brand loyalty and I realize that many people will buy something simply because they have been told that that the Cadillac is a prime name and therefore equals quality. That is why I asked the question, if something is made of the same parts what makes one better? I have received a lot of great information that has explained to me that it is in the finishing and quality control that separates the brands, not just a persons belief that one is better just because it is.
I think an accurate answer to your question often requires access to proprietary information from both the supplier and manufacturer that you are unlikely to readily find without signing a non-disclosure agreement.
A verifiable, quantitative answer would probably require that, yes.
This is true and I know that all the answers are not available. This thread has helped me gather information so I can survive the waves of BS that comes when you enter a gun shop, and help me be a better informed purchaser.
Look using 3rd party suppliers is done by EVERYBODY, they don’t have a choice in todays climate with union labor etc. it’s cheaper to farm out some of the work than to do 100% in house. If you want an entirely in house manufactured gun it would cost $3000 or so.
The fact is their may be dozens of companies BUILDING rifles but there are only so many companies that produce the required alloy steels and forgings.
Though no manufacturer will admit it and neither will the subcontractors no matter what AR-15 you have if it says the parts are a certain alloy or forging then the same half dozen machine shops and steel/aluminum providers made the parts in your gun no matter whose little animal is pictured on the side.
The diffrence comes when some builders buy substitute alloys to save a buck then all bets are off.
Take the barrel and bolt/bolt carrier for instance generally in a more quality build the builder makes sure they use Carpenter 158 for the bolt and carrier and 4150 for the barrel this meets industry wide high standards for those parts…
Well guess what, there are only a few suppliers that supply that steel alloy so everybody who intends to use it for their parts will get it from the same sources.
But then you have other builder who think “Good Enough” is good enough and may use a 4140 steel barrel or bolt bolt carrier thinking well by the time they fire enough rounds to break this thing it won’t matter.
In short it does not matter who builds the gun some parts do indeed come from outside contractors because nobody can afford all the manufacturing faculties it would take to make the whole gun from the raw materials up.
Thats what these retards who want gun bans don’t think about, it won’t just be gun manufacturers punished it will be steel and aluminum workers, it will be ammunition makers, Machinist and machine shops it will have a ripple effect throughout other industries.
The biggest thing is making sure the Recievers and Bolt/Boltcarrier are the right alloys Always ask to see the technical specs for the gun to make sure it is quality alloys to begin with.
DD manufactures their lowers/uppers/barrels/rails/FSB/Muzzle Device in house…I do not know if they produce their own BCG/Bolt/Buffer/Trigger Group