It’s bound to happen. People do it out of an instinct for survival. However, the groups resources and integrity, will be guarded at gun point. Besides, with several 5 gallon cans of fuel per vehicle, most of them will be on the side of the road with empty fuel tanks.
if you’re open to critique, and i’d expect so since you posted this thread here… then please post the lists when you get 'em hammered out. fresh eyes and other backgrounds may spot a problem or offer a solution that you hadn’t hit yet.
the only problem i see is that depending on the work schedules involved in your group, the “no notice” drills may be difficult to pull off without someone missing work or something.
but if you start with a prearranged time bracket on a day that won’t make anyone miss work and then trigger the bugout a few hours early that may be enough to keep people on their toes.
then throw in a reroute somewhere along the line. just tell them "the road we planned to take IS closed, we need to detour. you can gauge their reactions. if you get the deer in the headlights look when you tell them that the road which is obviously OPEN is, as far as the group is concerned closed, you may see how they reach to problems and think on their feet. it’s just a role playing scenario.
then on occasion something real happens while running the scenario and you encounter a REAL accident or something. treat it just like it’s part of the scenario and find a way AROUND it. not wishing an accident on anyone, but if you do encounter one, incorporate it.
if you’re loading gas cans on a trailer or in the back of a truck… DON’T leave them visible. cover them with a tarp or something and make sure it’s secured so it doesn’t come loose/blow off. just avoid the issue of having to deal with someone begging for gas or trying to steal it.
if you’re open to critique, and i’d expect so since you posted this thread here… then please post the lists when you get 'em hammered out. fresh eyes and other backgrounds may spot a problem or offer a solution that you hadn’t hit yet.
the only problem i see is that depending on the work schedules involved in your group, the “no notice” drills may be difficult to pull off without someone missing work or something.
but if you start with a prearranged time bracket on a day that won’t make anyone miss work and then trigger the bugout a few hours early that may be enough to keep people on their toes.
then throw in a reroute somewhere along the line. just tell them "the road we planned to take IS closed, we need to detour. you can gauge their reactions. if you get the deer in the headlights look when you tell them that the road which is obviously OPEN is, as far as the group is concerned closed, you may see how they reach to problems and think on their feet. it’s just a role playing scenario.
then on occasion something real happens while running the scenario and you encounter a REAL accident or something. treat it just like it’s part of the scenario and find a way AROUND it. not wishing an accident on anyone, but if you do encounter one, incorporate it.
if you’re loading gas cans on a trailer or in the back of a truck… DON’T leave them visible. cover them with a tarp or something and make sure it’s secured so it doesn’t come loose/blow off. just avoid the issue of having to deal with someone begging for gas or trying to steal it.
Yes, I am open to advise from others and started this thread as a brainstorming one. Also to give folks something to think about if and when, they decide to go the “convoy” route or Stay in place.
The various list I’m pondering and have shared with a few but not all AND not complete or conclusive:
Alternate Comms: 2 way radios. Blackberry IM, which is supposed to be pretty secure and one of the few comms that worked post Katrina.
Additional fuel quantity: based on size of vehicle, and distance to travel. Hopefully enough, per vehicle to get to initial rally point outside of the state, vehicle mileage dependent.
Food/Water: A week’s worth, and types (Canned, freeze dried, MREs, etc…)
Fire: Camping stove? propane? Grill? Backpacking grill? (Ive used this one many times during camping and works great, just lay it over the camp fire, using local deadwood for fuel).
Medicines/Medical supplies: Self explanatory. Every vehicle with 2 IFAK type kits. At least one MD with group, maybe one more.
Pet Care, personal insurance papers, etc…individual/family dependent, not convoy dependent.
Each person has a BOB, in case of separation, vehicle break down, couldn’t make rally point in time, etc…
Others list as it develops and as required.
the only problem i see is that depending on the work schedules involved in your group, the “no notice” drills may be difficult to pull off without someone missing work or something.
I thought about that. Maybe a “phased” evac, based on work schedules. Leave in smaller groups, to link up with the others,at another rally point or alternate, based on time. Would require just what you have stored in your vehicle, at that time, unless you have time to get home and meet up down the road.
but if you start with a prearranged time bracket on a day that won’t make anyone miss work and then trigger the bugout a few hours early that may be enough to keep people on their toes.
Thought about a drill on a weekend, just for practice, terminating with a picnic or something for the family, practice convoy driving, tactics, commo.
then throw in a reroute somewhere along the line. just tell them "the road we planned to take IS closed, we need to detour. you can gauge their reactions. if you get the deer in the headlights look when you tell them that the road which is obviously OPEN is, as far as the group is concerned closed, you may see how they reach to problems and think on their feet. it’s just a role playing scenario.
then on occasion something real happens while running the scenario and you encounter a REAL accident or something. treat it just like it’s part of the scenario and find a way AROUND it. not wishing an accident on anyone, but if you do encounter one, incorporate it.
Agreed.
if you’re loading gas cans on a trailer or in the back of a truck… DON’T leave them visible. cover them with a tarp or something and make sure it’s secured so it doesn’t come loose/blow off. just avoid the issue of having to deal with someone begging for gas or trying to steal it.
Agreed. Everything is to be packed and concealed to assume a typical evac, without exposing resources.
i’ve used a good FRS with a PTT earbud before. VOX is a non-starter because it’s always sending for some reason and often clips the first bit. GMRS have become more common and those have better range than FRS, but “require a license”. (that many users probably don’t bother with) HAM is great, but then you do really need the license. with FRS and GMRS radios you get what you pay for. some are great, some are crap.
Food/Water: A week’s worth, and types (Canned, freeze dried, MREs, etc…)
i’m looking at the situations in your area from further away that you… but after an event on the scale of Katrina or Andrew i seem to remember some people not returning for up to about two weeks from the time they left. that’s assuming that you leave two days in advance and not at the last minute. i recall hearing lots of stories about everyting being in short supply from fleeing Katrina refugees.
my point here is that one week’s food is a great starting point, but two weeks worth might be a better plan. i’d pack the freeze dried in the BOBs, for the weight savings, and/or MREs. MREs will also be good for eating WHILE traveling. avoids having to stop to prep and cook, finding a secure place to do that and dealing with anyone who drops in hoping for a handout. some people are happy eating a cold can of Chef Boy-R-Dee. MRE heaters are a great option. when you get someplace that’s a secure layover point or your destination then you can worry about more involved meals from canned or whatever else.
Fire: Camping stove? propane? Grill? Backpacking grill? (Ive used this one many times during camping and works great, just lay it over the camp fire, using local deadwood for fuel).
in the car, as long as space isn’t a HUGE concern, check the asain markets, or a food service specialty shop for some of the compact asian stoves that run on canned iso-butane. they’re CHEAP, very simple to work and crank out some heat. they should be under $20 and about two bucks per can of fuel.
the suitcase-sized Coleman stoves that are a camping staple work… but are a pain to pump up and mine never cranks out as much heat as the smaller, cheaper, easier to use asian wonder. they have a piezo igniter too so you don’t need matches or a lighter. i’ve seen these on ebay, but can’t find them now.
the backpacking stoves are an option for the BOBs, but so are the “ranger stoves” that fit over a canteen cup, or the folding esbit stoves.
a folding grill to cook over a campfire is also a great option… but then you need to gather firewood and get coals.
Medicines/Medical supplies: Self explanatory. Every vehicle with 2 IFAK type kits. At least one MD with group, maybe one more.
having medical professionals in a group like this is a great bonus. getting everyone else to attend some Red Cross first aid or better training is also a good idea.
Pet Care, personal insurance papers, etc…individual/family dependent, not convoy dependent.
Each person has a BOB, in case of separation, vehicle break down, couldn’t make rally point in time, etc…
for the BOBs, and other related gear i’d suggest AVOIDING mil surp packs and anything that’s camo. you can find decent civilian type gear in subdued earthtone colors… and it won’t get as much attention if someone sees it in your home or vehicle. some people see a bunch of camo gear and start asking questions, talking or jumping to conclusions.
Thought about a drill on a weekend, just for practice, terminating with a picnic or something for the family, practice convoy driving, tactics, commo.
that’s a good way to start. AFTER doing it in a time that fits the more “normal” schedules… and tying it into a picnic or campout will make it something fun for everyone. much better than just turning around and heading home… and a weekend campout would actually give you the oportunity to use some of the stuff you packed.
i’ve used a good FRS with a PTT earbud before. VOX is a non-starter because it’s always sending for some reason and often clips the first bit. GMRS have become more common and those have better range than FRS, but “require a license”. (that many users probably don’t bother with) HAM is great, but then you do really need the license. with FRS and GMRS radios you get what you pay for. some are great, some are crap.
Food/Water: A week’s worth, and types (Canned, freeze dried, MREs, etc…)
i’m looking at the situations in your area from further away that you… but after an event on the scale of Katrina or Andrew i seem to remember some people not returning for up to about two weeks from the time they left. that’s assuming that you leave two days in advance and not at the last minute. i recall hearing lots of stories about everyting being in short supply from fleeing Katrina refugees.
my point here is that one week’s food is a great starting point, but two weeks worth might be a better plan. i’d pack the freeze dried in the BOBs, for the weight savings, and/or MREs. MREs will also be good for eating WHILE traveling. avoids having to stop to prep and cook, finding a secure place to do that and dealing with anyone who drops in hoping for a handout. some people are happy eating a cold can of Chef Boy-R-Dee. MRE heaters are a great option. when you get someplace that’s a secure layover point or your destination then you can worry about more involved meals from canned or whatever else.
Fire: Camping stove? propane? Grill? Backpacking grill? (Ive used this one many times during camping and works great, just lay it over the camp fire, using local deadwood for fuel).
in the car, as long as space isn’t a HUGE concern, check the asain markets, or a food service specialty shop for some of the compact asian stoves that run on canned iso-butane. they’re CHEAP, very simple to work and crank out some heat. they should be under $20 and about two bucks per can of fuel.
the suitcase-sized Coleman stoves that are a camping staple work… but are a pain to pump up and mine never cranks out as much heat as the smaller, cheaper, easier to use asian wonder. they have a piezo igniter too so you don’t need matches or a lighter. i’ve seen these on ebay, but can’t find them now.
the backpacking stoves are an option for the BOBs, but so are the “ranger stoves” that fit over a canteen cup, or the folding esbit stoves.
a folding grill to cook over a campfire is also a great option… but then you need to gather firewood and get coals.
Medicines/Medical supplies: Self explanatory. Every vehicle with 2 IFAK type kits. At least one MD with group, maybe one more.
having medical professionals in a group like this is a great bonus. getting everyone else to attend some Red Cross first aid or better training is also a good idea.
Pet Care, personal insurance papers, etc…individual/family dependent, not convoy dependent.
Each person has a BOB, in case of separation, vehicle break down, couldn’t make rally point in time, etc…
for the BOBs, and other related gear i’d suggest AVOIDING mil surp packs and anything that’s camo. you can find decent civilian type gear in subdued earthtone colors… and it won’t get as much attention if someone sees it in your home or vehicle. some people see a bunch of camo gear and start asking questions, talking or jumping to conclusions.
Thought about a drill on a weekend, just for practice, terminating with a picnic or something for the family, practice convoy driving, tactics, commo.
that’s a good way to start. AFTER doing it in a time that fits the more “normal” schedules… and tying it into a picnic or campout will make it something fun for everyone. much better than just turning around and heading home… and a weekend campout would actually give you the oportunity to use some of the stuff you packed.
I could be way off base here but I think the optimal time to carry out a practice run would be on a Friday, or first day, of a major holiday weekend. It would provide a more similar environment to an emergency evac situation with traffic conditions, a typical clusterfuck, and confusion amongst the convoy with more people, cars, spacing out, etc. Communications would be put more to the test and the group’s cohesiveness would be challenged when it comes to the additional stress from traffic confusion, taking breaks, gas fill ups, etc.
While I’m on the subject I have a couple more thoughts I’ll throw your way. On a random Wednesday at 21:00 call everybody on your team and tell them that the hypothetical shit has hit the fan and they need to proceed as if it isn’t a “drill” and get on with the plan. Just like fire drills and CBR drills in the military the surprise factor throws a few wrenches in the works. Just take a cooler of ice cold beverages for everyone to enjoy after the shit show ends
Just a few thoughts…
In the event of a mandatory evacuation, I am not going. I like my chances of survival better in an evacuated area than getting stuck in a traffic jam, having to abandon the vehicle and walk 100 miles or more to a collection center like the Superdome for all the fun and games that would entail.
All good ideas fixer. Some have been tossed about earlier and others are being considered. This is still in the infancy stage and a continuing work in progress. Hopefully we will get a good solid group together and really scrub the details, after some group input, and do some trial runs.
Any time you, as an individual has to leave home, it is a challenge. Keeping yourself alive is one thing, but keeping a group alive is another. Sure, the chores, tasks, etc. are divided up, assuming all members are fit and willing, but the logistical requirements are a challenge to say the least. Adequate drinking water, food, shelter, sanitation, medicine, etc., not to mention protection of said individuals.
The concept of a convoy is nice, but in reality, rather impractical. Planning would have to be completed months and years in advance, rehearsed. Logistics, logistics, logistics. The strength of any army is determined by its supply lines. You can have the best tanks in the world, but if you do not have adequate fuel, oil, spare parts, not to mention the support of personnel, etc., etc. you might as well have a dud!
Where to go, what routes to get there, how much time, fuel, and resources it would take to get there. Once “there”, what awaits you? Is there provisions, ready storage of water, food, adequate shelter, beds, running water and toilet facilities. Hollywood often paints natural disasters as a romantic game of Mario Super brothers - dudging hail, and fire balls, etc. The reality is far from Hollywood’s imagination. The first couple of days may seems adventurous if not heroic, 72 hours later, the big SUCK is on. Kids and women loose patience. Those that are sick get worse assuming no injuries are incurred along the way.
I have studied natural disasters, and evacuations for many years now having lived in Florida and the Caribbean for many years, but on land and at sea. One thing is common, government is completely unprepared to cope with natural disasters. All they can do is help in the search & rescue, provide reparation loans, and other minor services. That said, it comes down to the individual. His or her strengths and weakness to survive - some will, many will not. It is futile to think that anyone can save the mass.
When it comes to evacuation, unless you live in an area that is the next ground zero for a natural disaster, i.e.,100 year flood zone, barrier island, or inter-coastal (areas that you KNOW ahead of time will be devastated), trailer park alley (aka tornado magnetics),… you are best served by staying put. If you have taken the necessary precautions, and made the necessary preparations ahead of time, because when disaster kits, the time to prepare is over - than your home if the best place for you. You know your neighbors, your local sources for food, fuel, etc. You know best how to defend your turf with friends and neighbors against looters, etc. If it comes down to day to day survival, you have a base to launch food, fuel, medical missions from. You know the lay of the land already, you will know hard targers and soft targets. Much easier to navigate and defend your territory than to explore and take others - especially when others will be in the same state as you.
If you are fortunate enough to have another home, cabin, lodge, etc., to leave when your primary residence can no longer sustain you and your family, than you are in the fortunate few. The odds are in your favor assuming you can sustain and maintain your family there long enough until you can make your return.
Bottom line is, do not underestimate the resources necessary to sustain and survive. There is comfort in numbers, but that comfort is short lived when those numbers can not be sustained. We live in a “Just In Time” society. We no longer stock up on more than a weeks worth of groceries. Most food outlets, can be restocked in 24 - 48 hours assuming the logistical routes are open. The reality is, most food outlets will be cleaned out in 5 - 8 hours. Most of our drinking water is provided by utility or municipalities which themselves are vulnerable (soft targets).
I determined that I will not evacuate my home unless, it can no longer sustain my survival. I have added a 30Kw backup generator with a 60 gallon diesel tank. I have a drinking well that I added in addition to my first source - community water. I added a natural gas line recently to the house in addition to my 500 gallon propane in ground tank. In other words, I have redundant supplies of power, water, and fuel. I know every inch of my property, and know how to defend it - in other words, I’ve made myself a hard target. My survival mission has been simplified to finding adequate sources of clean fuel (gasoline and diesel), and medical attention (if and when needed). Food is an ongoing challenge. It is a weak link, but one that will be overcome in due time. Being prepared can not be underestimated.
TacticalGuy has it figured out. A convoy in a traffic jam is a recipe for dissaster for the reasons many have already mentioned. And if you don’t have a sound destination, with resources in place, what are you going to do once you get “there”. Where ever “there” is. Think about how quickly you can fill up your car/truck for a simple weekend camping trip.
I think the planning starts with locating to a place away from major population centers. My plan started with moving my family from MA to VT. Then start taking the steps that TatcticalGuy has taken to protect your home. Next, know your neighbors and your community. You will have to work with them to defend your town when the masses in convoys (that make it) start rolling in looking to take advantage of your resources. Think 24/7 armed road blocks. It won’t be long before those city dwellers that makes it out of the city will be looking for water, food, gas, etc. They may be armed and will certainly be desperate.
Good post TacticalGuy! Some great points; logistics logistics logistics, oh, and then there’s Logistics. We evacuated Key West in 1992 and that was with a bunch of stuff; food for 2 weeks, firearms, ammo several large bottles of water (3 gal size). We evacuated to North Miami. It was a drive that normally took 4.5 hours, which took, close to 16 hours, and we were in a Honda Civic which didn’t cause us to need to stop for gas which would have added easily another 1-3 hours, and just for clarity, this was a 48+ hour evacuation.
Our experience in a catastrophic weather event here in Florida (4+ on the Saffir Simpson Scale) has been difficult if not impossible movement on the roads. Just our experience. I don’t ever want to get caught on the road in my car in the middle of a catastrophic storm, you’re dead, for sure…
As noodle said, we live in a horseshoe shaped street, one way in, one way out. We already have an organized neighborhood plan, all of the neighborhood is armed including the LEO who lives here, so after things settle down weather-wise, we’ll be parking 2 cars across ear of the 2 entrances/exits one a marked cruiser. We’ll have around the clock watch duty. Our neighborhood will be a secure area…
Good suggestions “IF” we wait until the very day of the SHTF. That is not the “plan” which is to get out no later than 2 days prior, and that’s for the stragglers. 3 days prior is the goal for the main body to move out. FYI, In FL, most folks I know, have at least a week or two of supplies. Me having 2+ weeks, at any given point in time (Not including several cases of MREs and cases of water stored, and numerous 5 gallon water cans), prior to any Hurricane, mine goes up to a month.
Interesting discussion, good points on both sides; to stay put, and mobilize.
I was considering the potential of finding key group personnel unavailable for either bug-out or dig-in plans. LE, mil, firefighters, and some other select public service employees would be required to report for duty in a disaster situation.
Lived on Sint Maarten and experienced Lenny. Did not evac. No power or running water for weeks. Was prepared and we did fine. Lived in NOLA during Katrina. Wife(in Residency at time) wasn’t allowed to leave. We had special passes to get around. Siphoned gas, shit in a bucket, and showered from a bottle. House sh** wrecked. We were prepared and did fine. Had to deal with looters by myself several times. I was clearly outnumbered. Had a plan, did fine. Roamed the streets for weeks in NOLA after Katrina; no probs. Both firearms and diplomacy were required.
Is there strength in numbers? Yes; but there are also issues that arise from this. Moving next month to a sparsely populated state that is quite mountainous. We chose the location based on several factors with one being the ability to leave a S Hitting TF situation behind. This entails covering the possibility of non-motorized transport as well as trying to cover the myriad of variables to deal with. Not going into detail as many will understand.
All this said, the plan is to now get as far into back country as possible to land we are looking at purchasing(not primary residence). No paved roads, barely roads at all. We have been through SHTF several times and have reached the conclusion that this is the best possible scenario for us. We are both in excellent shape, wife is surgeon(medical covered by serious large med. kit), and both of us grew up outdoors in farming families. We plan on starting serious hiking/camping with heavily loaded packs for fun/health/preparation. Large amts. of prepositioned supplies to be at bug out site.
Boils down to feeling we can make a better go at it on our own than in a burgeoning society. Some say the only way to make it is in a group. I say this depends where you are. Those that say they are going it alone had better make sure they have the skill set and experience to do so. There isn’t really an answer as to go it alone or in a group. It is dependent upon the individual and the situation.
If you have the means to bug out and do so effectively, and efficiently - than incorporate that into your plans. Determine the best “alternative routes” to gt there. Know in advance how much fuel is needed (+reserves). Also, keep at least one of your vehicles in absolute maintenance bug-out status - it has to function when called upon.
Evacuation with the masses is a disaster in the making. Look at footage taken of recent mandatory evacs - what a cluster F^&$k! Government loves to show us how our tax dollars are being wisely spent on emergency equipment, personnel and training - at the end of the day, it comes down to John-Q-Public. Its a joke. Miles and miles of cars parked on the super-highways with no where to go. All gas stations along the way of this moving mayhem sucked dry by the first hundred or so ill-prepared. Commercial traffic that needs to get to local supermarkets, hardware stores, gas stations, etc… for badly needed restocking, are all got up in this short-sighted, snail-train to nowhere. Now, imagine if you will for a minute - take this same scenario, and add into it a major highway accident involving a gas tanker, multiple cars, a possible terrorist strike. Folks we are talking pandemonium and mayhem! If you live on an out island like Cape Hatteras, the Keys, etc., where there are limited roads to get in an out - look out, stock up on body bags.
Ideally, a second home site deep inland with sufficient fresh water, and means to live off the land once your emergency supplies runs low would be required. This is something to think about, and plan for. But until than, get an ATV - they are great to get around, can traverse most road conditions, has adequate space to carry stores of food and fresh water, and rather fuel efficient.
I think you have made some excellent points. I would like to add that in the pandemonium, someone will try to take that ATV away from you, so be prepared for that, be cautious, and only go out when absolutely necessary.