Magazine capacity, munitions, and NYPD

The most recently released NYPD SOP-9 “Annual Firearms Discharge Report” data from 2011 document that 7 rounds or less were fired in 65% of NYPD OIS incidents, while in 35% of cases officers needed to fire more than 7 shots to stop the threat. Interestingly in 29% of the incidents, more than 10 shots were required to end the violent encounter.

For 2010, in 67% of the NYPD OIS incidents 7 rounds or less were fired; however in 33% of the incidents more than 7 shots were required to subdue the threat. In 21% of lethal force encounters more than 10 shots were required.

So if NYPD officers need more than 7 shots to stop violent attackers greater than 1/3 of the time, why would innocent civilians who likely have no body armor, no radio, no partner, no cover units, no less lethal options, no duty belt with extra magazines, yet who are being confronted by the same violent felons as the police need less ammunition than the NYPD officers?

By arbitrarily restricting magazine capacity for civilians to 7 or 10 rounds, the most current NYPD SOP-9 data strongly suggests that in 1/4 to 1/3 of incidents civilians will likely run out of ammunition before the violent attacker has been stopped…

When law enforcement agencies select munitions intended for Lethal Force Use, the primary requirement is to choose munitions that can rapidly and reliably incapacitate and stop hostile individuals who pose an immediate potentially life threatening danger to public safety and prevent them from continuing their violent actions. In addition, the munitions are carefully selected to try and minimize danger to innocent bystanders, as well as officers.

If a member of the public is sadly forced to use lethal force to defend themselves, their family, or other innocent citizens, the requirements for lethal force munitions are EXACTLY the same as needed by the Police in such a horrible eventuality–to quickly stop the violent criminal without endangering other innocent people. In fact, it would likely be prudent and wise for a legally armed citizen to seek out the same tested and proven munitions that are used by police in order to have the greatest chance of safely and successfully surviving a lethal force encounter.

As the progenitor of modern law enforcement, Sir Robert Peel, cogently noted:

"The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.”

In short, civilian citizens should use the same munitions chosen by police in their community, as the lethal force requirements are identical and the anatomy, physiology, and incapacitation potential of a violent felon does not suddenly change whether confronted by law enforcement officers or private citizens.

Great write up.

Mind if I share this with people via email and facebook?

DocGKR,

That is good information to have. Should be required reading for the country given the current trend to have the uneducated arbitrarily choose a number of rounds necessary for use.

Thanks for sharing. Really glad the NYPD decided (or maybe was forced?) to keep such statistics. Do you happen to have a link to source (NYPD SOP-9 “Annual Firearms Discharge Report”)?

The data is public info and can be distributed widely: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/nypd_annual_firearms_discharge_report_2011.pdf

They started talking more than a week ago about the repeal of the 7 round limit. I cant say for sure but I believe its off the table here in NY they have settled for the 10 but we are going for broke with the law suit. I want 16 in my glock.

Interesting.

Excellent.

(1) Permission to use/post elsewhere?

(2) You have used data, logic, and big words in the above = must be ignore by proponents of gun control

(3) your post:

Very interesting and well done report. Thanks for sharing that. Unless I missed it, nowhere in the report were statistics for number of hits vs shots fired. Just curious really. Any idea why that data would be omitted from an otherwise exhaustive report? Knowledgeable speculation is OK too.

JimmyB62: See p24 of the 2011 SOP-9 report ("Objective Completion Rate).

Will Brink: See my post above.

Amen.

You might add that Mayor Bloomberg repeatedly defended the actions of the NYPD as reasonable and necessary after they fired 16 times to stop the Empire State Building shooter. While you might not need ten rounds in your magazine to kill a deer, it could take more than that to stop a violent felon.

To everyone stuck in NY, I am very sorry. Thank God I have the ability to choose where I live.

Ten chances to survive, that’s really nice of them.

[i]-Declaration of Independence-

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–[/i]

If one carries a firearm that was originally capable of holding 15 rounds and the goverment passes laws that limit firearm capacity to 7 rounds, then 8 chances to preserve one’s life have been taken away.

We have a right to life. The govenment cannot ration our right to life.

Thank you for posting! Powerful and insightful.

I missed that paragraph the first time. I’m curious if you agree with their concept of objective completion rate; that hit percentage is irrelevant? Pass/fail as they call it. I do understand the logic in the idea. It seems to me though that average hit percentage would be useful data to determine if specific training might be of benefit to the officers.

Anyway, again thanks for posting this. I think it will make for a compelling argument with regard to citizen armament and restriction, although I’m sure that to some degree it will fall on deaf ears.

The above is not always accurate as many of the smaller and even the larger departments buy the cheapest “Contract” ammunition they can find through the major L/E ammunition dealers due to budget or availability issues.

I would humbly suggest that DocGKR’s list of suitable carry ammunition be considered foremost because the ammunition selection of the end users local L/E department may not be the most effective choice for the reasons listed above.

Doc, this is FANTASTIC information and if publicized correctly, could completely undermine efforts to arbitrarily limit magazine capacity.

I encourage EVERYONE here to contact your reps, senators, and every talking head, blogger, and sympathetic news agency you know. Share this information with them and they’ll run with it.

I echo the sentiment of others on this. Excellent write up Doc. You used the 2 greatest enemies of the liberal, logic and fact.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

Too good not to share on my FB page :slight_smile:

Thank you for this information. It provides concrete figures for what we have already known to be true. As we all know, fact > feeling.

I have used a direct link to the NYPD to help inform local 2A advocates.

Much appreciated, sir.

I am in NY and used to carry a 17 round G17 or 16 round g19 with a brirth control mag I went with 40 and 45