M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

I was helping AI a Hackathorn class this weekend and was listening to Ken talk AK’s and the fact that they DO fail and break. This discussion coupled with some recent threads makes me wonder what the thought process is that people go through when making purchase decisions.

One of the things I constantly see and deal with as a firearms dealer is people setting up AR’s for what they do 10% of the time (totally ignoring the other 90%). I am not sure why people do this, but it is nearly impossible to set them straight and get them to think about the “BIG PICTURE.”

Example, guy wants an AR for HD, Training and Varmint shooting. The HD and Training part occupy the MAJORITY of the time spent with the gun, but yet wants a 20" HBAR in SS. He does not realize that this AR will be VERY heavy and long and he won’t like holding it all day in a 9 hour carbine class.

This leads me to the next problem. The PERCEIVED limitations of one type of gun will make people buy or use one gun over another. Case in point, buyer is concerned about the AR15 being reliable when “dirty.” So he purchases an AK/AUG/Piston AR/ETC as he believes that this is the more reliable gun. There is just one problem with this logic. An AR15 that is “dirty”, but lubed properly WILL RUN for thousands and thousand of rounds.
So the question is, what situation do people think they are going to be in that they are going to fire their AR for so many rounds that it quits running???

Having spent lots of time talking to Active Duty Tier 1 and Tier 2 types, their common mag load out CAN BE 6 mags and NO pistol mag reload. Yet, we see Civy’s at training classes carrying 12 mags on their chest rig. :confused:

Point to all of this is do not let PERCEIVED limitations get in the way of rational thinking. Look at the WHOLE picture (accuracy, weight, cost, size, aftermarket parts, configurability, factory spare parts, magazine availability and cost, ammunition cost and armorer support) before making your choice for a defensive tool.

C4

2

For the most part many folks will be “Pretending” and “Playing dress-up” with guns.

They don’t know or haven’t decided what they want or need but have some money and/or time.

3

Why worry about interjecting rationality into other folks’ fantasy man-camp fun days?

This is a serious question. So some people (occasionally including me) like showing up to a range to an expensive class with all kinds of expensive war gear on and expensive rifles with expensive optics on them and shoot a bunch of expensive ammo at paper targets and hang out with former high-speed dudes and feel cool by association.

There is nothing rational about that in and of itself. It’s not a good use of funds or time if self defense is the goal. Ultimately, however they justify it, people do it because it’s fun. Why interrupt their fun?

Your two examples: the varmint hunter will figure it out for himself soon. He’ll buy another upper if he needs to. Now he can do HD and varmint hunting with the appropriate tool. Problem solved. For the AK guy, let him shoot an AK if that’s what he wants to shoot. Or AUG. Or whatever. Why does it matter?

ETA: sinister said it first and better.

4

I am a big fan of nice glass, guns and gear. The problem is that many people do NOT have the finances to buy one of everything and end up making poor choices with the money the do have.

My post was intended to save them from themselves (or at least try).

C4

5

C4 makes a great point. A LOT of people are under educated when it comes to purchases and gear. To the first point in counter arguing the AR vs AK “gun-ism”: the AR is much more reliable than you think, and the AK is more accurate than you think. There is no end all be all rifle, choose the correct tool for the job. When I hear people describing what they want in their rifle I’m reminded of a 7 year old when you ask them what they want to be when they grow up. I don’t know about you, but I haven’t met many “school teacher/pop singer/astronaut/veterinarians” in my travels.

To the second point; yes there is a lot a playing “dress-up” going on there. For those that know it; ok, that’s fine as long as they realize it and LEARN something from the course. But there does need to be a dose of reality for some people. There’s a bit too much fantasy and “gun counter” logic out there. I try to educate when I can without being condescending. You can lead a horse to water…

6

I think this is the main factor when you see someone in class carrying 12 mags, wearing full body armor, a helmet and shooting an AR with all sorts of stuff mounted to it. They don’t really know what they need and don’t have the experience to make that decision. After a class or 2 I would think you are going to see some changes come about. Then there will be the ultimate pretender who will always play dress-up. If they’re safe and not holding up the class let them have their fun.

7

From personal experience… My first build was a spikes tactical that I some how managed to get upwards of $1900 worth of crap into. As I was building it I became a member here and I just started to read and read and read. I eventually learned that all that added junk is, just that, junk. Some people just have to learn the hard way…:suicide:

8

This is a topic I have wondered about and one of the reasons I came here to do research. To be honest, I fail to see where the civilian would need all the gear used by the military and I fail to see why one would need to carry so much ammo. In a HD scenario how much ammo is needed? There are not 100 people in my community. If you need to carry 12 full mags to protect your home then your doing something wrong today to attract others later if the SHTF. Like you said, the m4 is a light package and I intend to keep mine that way. This was one of the major points I liked about it over rifles like the FAL.

9

I always start with KISS when on this subject. I find that it tends to resonate more with newbs like myself as they more than likely have applied the principle in other parts of their life. I start with that point of familiarity and then ease in to a more sane recommendation from there. Thanks to the valuable advice and experience on this sight my first build has been a fantastic success, and I intend to pass on that good will to others.

10

This is a subject I’ve thought about bringing up. Folks have several ARs in their collection, each configured with different missions in mind- CQB, SPR, RECCE, DMR and sniper. Yet the only real difference between each is the sighting system. Sure, there are differences in barrel profile, handguard and muzzle device, but these differences are minor. For all practical purposes, you could swap the Aimpoint Micro on your 16" CQB carbine for the optic from your 16" sniper rifle and do the same job.

Not that I have anything against a pile of firearms- I have different types of self loading 308 rifles and I could easily pick one and sell the rest, but where’s the fun in that?

Still, a shooters could more effectively put their resources to use. Instead of selecting a battery of ARs based on configurations, pick them according to terminal performance. When viewed in this way, a shooter could narrow it down to two. A compact rifle with about a 10.5" barrel with an RDS for close work and a second with an 18" to 20" barrel and a variable optic for long range work. If NFA isn’t desirable for any reason, substitute a 16" for the 10.5" barrel. It’s not as handy as shorter barrels but it’s still a practical choice. In fact, the 16" barrel could also substitute for the 20" barrel. It doesn’t have the reach, but the real difference in trajectory doesn’t make itself known until shooting past 600 yards.

One of the attractions of the AR is it’s easy to set up to match the needs of the individual shooter- which is great. But what I find interesting isn’t the differences in each of our individual rifles, but the similarities

11

I don’t care what guns and gear people use in class, or why they’re there. As long as they are safe with it, don’t consume more than their fair share of class resources (time, attention, etc), or slow down the class, have at it.

12

This sums up how I feel about it.

I think that PERCEPTIONS in many instances come from people who listen to war stories from people who don’t know a lot about a particular subject. At least it is profitable for vendors.

13

Agreed. Different people have different interests and needs. Tier one has to do with anything as they are a tiny fraction of the military working a very narrow and specific mission. Talk to the average infantry man about gear, then think about what they were carrying a decade ago for a load out.

Classes are there to teach, and if a guy shows up with crap on his weapon, I’ve always thought (as an instructor) that it was a great way for them to learn why.

14

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15

Oh make no mistake, I don’t either. That isn’t what this thread is about.

People choose a firearm based off illogical perceived “shortcomings” with a gun.

The main reason they state why they need a piston operated gun is because the AR is NOT reliable or CONSTANTLY needs cleaned.

As you and I know, this is not true in the least.

C4

16

Before I was on active duty, I heard some real B.S. about the reliability of some equipment and unreliability of other equipment. As the years passed, I learned that the sources of those expert opinions were not reliable. I think that the same type of sources are giving sage advice to people in the market to buy an AR or other rifle.

I have only been behind the counter at the local gun shop a few days; that was about all I could stand. The B.S. about semi-automatic rifles was flowing from both sides of the counter.

I did learn one thing though. A successful gun shop owner said “in the world of retail sales the customer is always right, even if they are not”.

17

What I don’t understand is the constant need to tout the AR as the best rifle out there. We all know that it is a very good rifle, with a proven record and many well thought out features that serve to reaffirm it rightful place among the best rifles that have been made.

That does not mean that there aren’t other good rifles out there, with other features that the AR does not have, making them attract shooters for that reason.

People are victims of their frame of reference, for both good and bad.

I have handled and shot many types of weapons throughout the years, but there are only a few that I am actually proficient with and feel confident using. Of the weapons I have shot and handled, there were a few I really didn’t like. Referencing the other thread, I shot a Steyr AUG a couple of weeks ago, and thought is was fun. That said, there were many, to me, flaws with the weapon (ergonomics, mag release, optics, trigger, weird recoil) that put me off on it. Any supposed benefit of the shorter OAL while still keeping a certain BBL did not make up for the perceived negatives.

The gist of this, however, is that this was my experience. Nobody can tell me I’m wrong for thinking what I do. Well, they can, but it doesn’t really matter. It all boils down to personal preference. Heck, I shot both a SCAR-L and a SCAR-H this summer, and thought the SCAR-L was too light; I really didn’t like the way it handled at all compared to my HK146. That does not mean that the SCAR is a shitty gun, it means that my body has 5 years of HK416 handling ingrained in it.

An “inferior” weapon in trained hands is more dangerous than a “superior” weapon in untrained hands.

The AR platform has a lot going for it, compared to other designs. and based on my current frame of reference, that is the platform I would go with. A G3 would be a close second though (if only someone would make a lighter weight version, with better mounting solutions for accessories).

For many, gun ownership, preference and training is a learning process. Not everybody is receptive to advice or perceived “short cuts” in getting to an “end-state” with regards to proficiency or quality. They want to experience the whole process themselves. For people with a higher degree of proficiency or more experience, that can sometimes seem a bit strange. It is what it is.

18

It’s amazing how the Vietnam Era shortcomings of the M16 have persisted to this day. I still here people state that the AK is so much more reliable than the M16/M4/AR.

19

I haven’t heard this from a Vietnam veteran in a very long time, about 3 hours. :smiley:

20

My Dad still believes this. He did 2 tours there. When I tell him I bought or put together a new AR his first words are why don’t you get an AK?! They are much more reliable and will keep on firing no matter how dirty they get! :rolleyes: