I am on the wait list for a LRB M25. But the more I read about the M14 (M25) platform it seems I can just go with a barreled action and finish the rest myself. I plan to go with just a plan USGI stock, meaning no bedding. So is it correct that if I buy the barreled action #1, which is a head-spaced barrel fitted to the receiver and a lapped bolt, the rest is just a matter of pins and springs? No gunsmithing required, but about the same as building an AR lower?
Not even close to building an AR lower…
You really need to specify what you are looking for from an accuracy standpoint. Are you looking for an M25 clone in looks only or are you looking for an M25 that is reliably acurate to the orginial XM25 standards? If it is an appearance clone - then, well sort of it’s just pins and springs. This is what I am guessing you are after based on a standard stock with no bedding. This alone will be a major obsatcle to repeatable accuracy. True M-25’s were developed up at the 10th SFG(A) at Ft Devens - the NCOIC of the project was MSG Tom Kapp (RIP) who was a visionary when building XM25’s. The key to their accuracy was ther stock / bedding system which used a specially built, fitted steel liner. The liner was bedded to the stock and the liner itself was fitted to the receiver. In addition, the stocks were McMillians and they were the heavy pattern. This is necessary to achieve the correct tension betweenn the front ferrule and the barrel band - which basically pulls the barrel down towards the stock. This tension creates a dampening system to mitigate barrel whip - very important for M14 accuracy. Every copmponet is hand fit to the barrel, flash suppressor is taper reamed and fit. Gas systems are highly tuned and use vented plugs as well as modified pistons when suppresors were used. There truly is a lot more to an M25 than meets the eye and it takes some serious experience and tooling to get one right - but when they are done correctly - a joy to shoot. Also - when it comes to optics - don’t skimp as M14s are death on shitty scopes - they eat them alive. Same with the scope mounts - the originals were Brookfield Precision which I think are out of production now.
I built M25’s and NM M14’s for the Army for years and MSG Kapp was a friend of mine - he was a genious gunsmith.
Sorry I should have been a bit more specific. I meant the LRB M25 receiver with integrated scope mount not the M25 sniper rifle. And it will go in a surplus USGI wood stock. It’s just I’ve seen Youtube videos and of guys stripping them down to just the barreled receiver and op rod guide then reassembled in pretty short amount of time. And it will get get scoped but not right away so I will be using iron for a while.
Not even close! Probably one of the most difficult modern semi autos to work on. Even basic 4moa rack grade guns require fitting for parts. Don’t for a second expect to slap it into a stock and expect it to fit as the stock fit is one of the largest contributors to accuracy. It’s not uncommon to have to fit it to multiple stocks to find one that works. Buying an LRB anything and gunsmithing it yourself without proper knowledge is equivalent to buying KAC parts and mixing them with dpms parts, slapping on a slide fire stock and thinking it’s a great gun. It took me several years to learn basic fitting on m14’s and my work is functional but ugly. Only an M14 smith would get to touch anything serious on my rifle.
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I would say that’s a pretty fair assessment. I have built dozens of m14s (although none for a few years) and you can go from a barreled receiver to a complete gun in a couple of minutes.
Slightly more if you unitize bits as you go.
I would just sit tight on LRB. I have been there many a time fondling their M14 builds. They do amazing work. I’ve never pulled the trigger on one, always go there for my AR-15 lowers, but they are great guys, know their stuff inside and out.
If you are going to scope it and it’s built in a std stock with no bedding - then you really are just throwing $ out the door. I don’t mean to sound harsh - but chucking an intergral scope based LRB rcvr itnto a std stock and expecting any type of accepatable performance is akin to putting retreads on a Ferrari…it’ll look cool but it won’t handle for she-it. I agree with USMC Anglico - wait on LRB and let them do a complete rifle OR take it to a well known / reputable M-14 'smith. Anything less is a waste of time & money. If you want a banger in a std stock, find a used USGI dimensioned Fed Ord rcvr for $200 and have at it.
I have built rifles on LRB rcvr’s and they are exquisite - they gauge as good or better than USGI TRW M-14 rcvrs.
Let me see… a VERY “off the rack” M-14 w/iron sights at 500 meters = seven bullseyes with three in the nine ring out of a ten shot string shot by an 18 year old Marine in boot camp at Edson Range, July 1966. Yeah, you need a bedded stock and a scope to get anything out of an M-14.
:sarcastic:
wetidlerjr;1821571]Let me see… a VERY “off the rack” M-14 w/iron sights at 500 meters = seven bullseyes with three in the nine ring out of a ten shot string shot by an 18 year old Marine in boot camp at Edson Range, July 1966. Yeah, you need a bedded stock and a scope to get anything out of an M-14. :sarcastic:
Hey Bill no one is saying that it won’t shoot to an acceptable level. The fact is, the LRB M25 rcvr is a specialty mfr’d recvr with intergral scopr base - “intended” for optics and far more precision than an “off the rack” boot M14. Additionally, bear in mind that your rack grade M14 was built by H&R, Winchester or TRW - on factory jigs / gauges with the correct tooling. I have built and tuned and rebuilt hundreds of M14’s - from rack grade blasters to precision sniper sysytems that were used in forward deployed areas. Also - I earned my Distinguished Rifleman and Presidents Hundred tab with and M14 - so I know not only how to build them - but how to shoot them as well. I also earmed a B4 ASI with an M21 - look it up if you need to know what it means.
I have also helped friends “un****” their home builds on various semi auto rcvrs (which all of them by the way, are different than a GI rcvr) Most got their rifles together without too much of an issue - however, some had serious fitting problems.
The point of all this is that it is absolutely more involved that just pins and springs to build a S/A M14/M25 rifle.
Additionally, the overarching point to this is utilizing the advanced features of the rcvr to their intended purpose ~ a precision scoped semi auto rifle, and thats the basis of these posts.
And BTW, if you were in the Marines in 1966, how did the target have a 9 ring? The targets used then were the 5V type with a center V, 5 ring (black) and a 4 ring (white). The black was 20" in diameter and they were shot at 500 yards not meters. So, assuming your 9 ring shots were actually 4’s and your other 7 shots were in the black (5’s & 5V’s) what you just demonstrated was a 2-1/2 - 3 MOA rifle, not really that impressive… and not what I’d want out of a rcvr that cost me more that $1200. Just sayin…:rolleyes:
What are your accuracy expectations?
A receiver’s a receiver. You pay a hefty premium to LRB for the forging vice a quality casting.
Once the barrel’s installed and the bolt is properly headspaced it’s just another blaster (even if you put on a premium hand-cut barrel). The original poster can probably have the other assemblies (trigger, sights, flash hider, gas system, etc.) put together and just reassemble as from detail-stripping.
OP will need to buy the right tools and find the correct technical manual for torque values.
Why one would want to do that with an expensive original investment floors me, but most people have more disposable income than I.
I have a mechanically-inclined friend who put together a National Match M14 from the USAMU guide, and when he took it to Hook Boutin (an M1/M14 legend in the USAMU Hall of Fame) for final technical, safety, and function once-over Hook told him, “Good job.”
Can it be done? Sure. Likely to go bang safely? Sure.
Anywhere near being up to snuff to win a club, state, regional, or National Match (in the shooter’s classification, even if he goes as a “Marksman or No Classification”? Highly unlikely.
But it would be fun until he comes into money and time down the road.
Putting a quality scope on it isn’t going to make it more precise, either (integral base or not).
They are beautiful, no doubt, and much more solid than any work-arounds based on the boss and hole in the left side of “Standard” receivers, or hand guard rails:
Thanks for all the replies. I’ve asked on m14 specific forums and honestly most of them tell me to go for it. I’ve never even shot a m14 before. I plan to take the scope mount off and use irons while I learn the platform. But I know that I have that scope option down the road. I choose the LRB over a SAI after much research and know that I can get most of my money back if I ever need to. Also I will save close to $600 between the 11% firearm tax and gunsmithing fees. That money can always be used in the future one I am comfortable with rifle.
The LRB is fairly faithful to the original M14s (starting as forgings) – but several friends I’ve shot highpower with are on their 7th or 8th barrel (changing out roughly every 3,000 rounds) with rifles built on Armscor or Sprngfields.
These guys are rabid and fanatic to squeeze the nth degree of precision from iron-sighted rifles and hand loads for National Match competition.
I had several mid 1990 Springfields “the ones Built with GI parts” They were very accurate and I will brag on how nice they were. Todays Springfields are really P.O.S. made in Taiwan parts rip offs. LRB would be the buy once cry once choice. Yes they are machine to fit and special tools etc. Just like the Garands.
Do you have any smithing experience?
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South Korea actually. Can’t remember the name of the company off the top of my head. I think the receivers are from Canada though.
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I was the same way for a lot of years. The accuracy I was looking for at 600 yards dropped off after 3,000-4,000 rounds. Skim bedding and meticulous gas cylinder & plug cleaning every 1,000 rounds was also a must.
If a person settled on sub 3 MOA accuracy, they should be able to get 8,000-10,000 rounds out of a barrel in my opinion.
You know that I have slept since then so my memory may not be perfect but Edson Range was pretty new at that time (two years) and it was a range measured in meters. I DO recall the DIs saying it was the first rifle range at Camp Pendleton that was in meters. I DO remember that. I shot ALL my boot camp rifle qualification at Edson and I shot NOTHING measured in feet. As for the “rings” I may well not remember that correctly, however, I do have my range (dope) book around somewhere and I might be able to find it. What was impressive was that an 18 year old recruit that had never fired any sort of high-powered rifle could shoot seven out of ten bull eyes with two weeks of training.
So feel free to roll your eyes and I’m not “just sayin”.
Have a nice day…
sinister;1821865]A receiver’s a receiver. You pay a hefty premium to LRB for the forging vice a quality casting.
Once the barrel’s installed and the bolt is properly headspaced it’s just another blaster (even if you put on a premium hand-cut barrel). The original poster can probably have the other assemblies (trigger, sights, flash hider, gas system, etc.) put together and just reassemble as from detail-stripping.
OP will need to buy the right tools and find the correct technical manual for torque values.
Why one would want to do that with an expensive original investment floors me, but most people have more disposable income than I.
I have a mechanically-inclined friend who put together a National Match M14 from the USAMU guide, and when he took it to Hook Boutin (an M1/M14 legend in the USAMU Hall of Fame) for final technical, safety, and function once-over Hook told him, “Good job.”
Can it be done? Sure. Likely to go bang safely? Sure.
Anywhere near being up to snuff to win a club, state, regional, or National Match (in the shooter’s classification, even if he goes as a “Marksman or No Classification”? Highly unlikely.
But it would be fun until he comes into money and time down the road.
Putting a quality scope on it isn’t going to make it more precise, either (integral base or not).
They are beautiful, no doubt, and much more solid than any work-arounds based on the boss and hole in the left side of “Standard” receivers, or hand guard rails:
Sinister,
I would have to agree 1000% with what you wrote - assembling a functional / safe rifle is usually within the skillset of most shooters - provided, as you stated - they have the right tools / manuals.
There are two areas where one usually gets into a problem and potentially a third that can be serious. The first is fitting the flash suppressor - if it is a GI bbl & and GI FS, then they usually slip right on. If it is an aftermarket / match bbl, then things can get dicey as the spline cuts on the bbl are usually on the low end of the dimension - done specifically to allow the 'smith to fit the FS without any rotational movement. The “old” method was to peen the spines on the bbl for a tight fit - experience is the byword there - thin bbls, excess force and you’ve got a distorted bore - I’ve seen it with an air gauge.
The other issue is fitting the gas cylinder - basically the same set up as the flash hider and the same set of problems.
The third potential is the op rod guide. It is is pre installed - (correctly) no issue. If not…well I’ve seen good bbls ruined by over zealous shade tree gunsmiths. The alignment is also critical since the op rod itself, mounts differently on a semi auto vs the real mccoy. Many a problem of an op rod jumping from it’s track can be traced to the guide being improperly installed / aligned.
The one aspect that I would have to disagree to a degree is the “A receiver’s a receiver”. Definitely not true. In this instance, the OP has chosen the creme’ de la creme’ of semi recvrs. There have been a parade of semi M14 rcvrs brought to market. Some have been outstanding and others aren’t even worth of a mock-up wall hanger. SAI are the most common, but honestly, I have seen so many bad ones that I’d never lay out any serious cash for one. Ones that have come across my bench include cracked rcvrs from the welded (factory) rear lugs, misaligned rear sight ear holes, bolt raceways that were so out of spec that they wouldn’t headspace etc. Early FedOrd rcvrs were a gem - they were made (forged) on USGI machinery (H&R) in Taiwan, later ones were cast and metric dimensioned junk.
Armscorp - blech - generally regarded as seriously soft. The few that I worked on wouldn’t hold HS. Smith Ent - they made exquisite recvrs - forgerd and pricey. Some of the Norinco’s were forged as well - but they were done with metric dimensioning. Most commercial M14 clones are atrocious in the scope mounting boss & slot - I mean HORRENDOUS to a point that it is sometimes impossible to get the rifle to zero.
One area where people fail to understand the importance of a quality rcvr is truly safety - as in the designed safety mechanisms that are present.
M14 / M1A’s etc are all designed around a bolt that has a true floating firing pin. Inside the rcvr, near the rear of where the bolt would be is a “bridge” that connects one side of the rcvr to the other side. This bridge is a VERY important safety mechanism and is one of the most common mistakes made when a rcvr is mfr’d. The bridge contains a camming surface and a slot for the firing pin leg to slide through. What this bridge/cam /slot does is ensure that the firing is cammed back (will not protrude from the bolt face) when the bolt goes into battery. Only when the bolt has rotated and locked with the slot line up with the leg on the firing pin and the hammer strike will allow it to travel forward through the slot to impact the primer. It works in reverse too - as the bolt unlocks, the cam retracts the firing pin and resets it rearward so when the bolt travels forward again - the shooter doesn’t experience the life altering / come to jesus event known as a slam fire. You’d be surprised how many semi auto M1A / M14 clones have flaws in this area.
The LRB is as you said, beautiful. They share the exact dimensions from the parent M14 that are appicable to a semi auto design. The op rods mount differently on M14s due to the connector and the selector switch - aside from those areas, the LRB is faithful in every aspect - forged, 8620 triple alloy steel and better than the orginals in that they are CNC machined - repeatable / consistent.
To The Waker43 - bear in mind that the scope rail on the LRB rvcr is set up so you CAN use iron sights with it installed. You will also be able to use the irons with a scope mounted - albeit at lower elevation settings. This is similar to the original Brookfield Precision mounts that allowed irons as a back up if the scope went bad. (not uncommon on an M21/M25 system)
Best of luck on your build - I hope you upgrade soon to truly take advantage of the inherent quality of that rcvr.
Bill,
My apologies if there was any heartburn with my obviously lame attempt at a bit of sarcasm. My aim wasn’t to malign you or the Corps. My point was to point out the actual accuracy of the M14 that you used and that a 2-1/2 to 3 moa rifle isn’t something to jump up and down about.
So, again - no disrespect to you or the Corps. My father was a career Marine (east coast) and I grew up on Marine bases.
And above all, thank you for your service.