M14 and all of the variants/teach this guy about the M14 in general.

General Firearms Other Semi-Automatic Rifles
1

I have recently become very interested in owning an M14, or M1A(?) and after looking through various forums I find myself still not knowing alot about them. I would like to buy one of good quality, or build one preferably, but as I come across the various names for types of builds such as SEI, or Norinco, or LRB I have no idea what that actually implies as far as quality or price, etc.

I was hoping that someone might be able to just lay it out plain and simple about the various types of manufacturers or brand of M14, and even whether or not I should be calling it an M14, or M1A, or M21, or whatever.

Much appreciated

2

LRB is forged then milled out like the original m-14 others on the market are cast the
Norinco’s are soft and have had problems with the headspace growing because the lugs geting peened back.
The SEI I am not up to date on maybe some one else can chime in on it.
I had a springfield armory loaded edition a few years back the receiver was cast but it served me well it was very accurate and zero malfunctions thousands of rounds both surplus and FGMM at that time the springfields were made with a lot of GI /TRW parts. A lot of the GI surplus parts are starting to dry up but LRB and SEI are producing parts that are supposed to be made to GI spec.
If I was in the market today looking for a m-14 /M1A1 I would look to LRB, SEI, and springfield armory.

3

The M1A is the semi auto M14 variant that Springfield Armory Inc. sells. They wanted to call it a M14 but ATF wouldn’t allow it when they were introduced, so they went with M1A.

Firstly, you need to ask yourself what you want to use the rifle for. Are you wanting a clone of the USGI M14, a heavier barreled target rifle, a custom build DMR (designated marksman rifle), a shorter barreled carbine type?

Springfield Armory has a somewhat spotty reputation on current M1A’s. This is mainly due to the fact that they ran out of USGI parts about a decade ago, so all their rifles are commercial grade. The earlier M1A’s were built using their commercial receiver and mostly USGI surplus parts, and they have a much better reputation.

Armscorp also makes a commercial receiver, which a lot of knowledgeable M14 guys prefer over the Springfield if they’re going to go with a cast receiver. Both Springfield and Armscorp are cast, the original M14 receivers were drop hammer forged like the M1 Garand.

Fulton Armory uses Armscorp receivers branded Fulton.

LRB are forged, and are about as highly regarded as they come. They are extremely well built, using premium commercial parts and GI where they can. Instead of using .308 Win. chambered non chrome lined Wilson barrels like Springfield, they use Krieger chrome lined 7.62 NATO chambered Criterion barrels.

You pay for it though.

So, what are you looking to do with it? That will go a long way towards where you want to look, and the features you’ll want on your rifle.

4

Firstly, thank you for the replies, it has certainly cleared some things up.

I mostly planned on getting an M14 as a semi-auto option for precision target shooting, I’m not a superb shooter, but as long as the rifle is MOA to sub-MOA capable I would be happy. In other words though, I don’t really need it to be a battle rifle, just something I can take to the range and work on my shooting, and of course have fun with.

I like to have options further down the line, so I had planned on keeping it woodstocked at first, then maybe toying around with some of those fancy chassis from sage or troy after I get familiar with the rifle.

Primarily though, I would like to build it myself. Is it particularly difficult to get the parts required for a solid target rifle?

5

I love the M14 but if you’re looking for precision it’s probably not your best option. It’s better than most shooters but they are difficult to get sub moa consistently. I’m only on my 2nd M1A though and there’s a lot of people with more experience so I may have to defer to their expertise.

6

What Steve said. The M14 system can be made to be very accurate, but they require a lot of work to keep them that way. The rifle was designed to be a battle rifle, not a tack driver…

I love the M14, I’ve owned a fair number of semi auto clones and one real registered transferrable Class 3 select fire M14, but the AR-10’s will out shoot them easily and with less work.

7

Hindsight is 20/20. I wish I hadn’t bought my SOCOM II and then converted it to the Troy MCS. I would have just bought an LMT .308 gun.

8

The first rifle I shot expert on after getting commissioned in 1986 was an M14. Back when I shot Hi-Power, I had a lot of match grade McMillan stocked M1A’s, both iron sighted and with optics (they were heavy beasts). For a variety of reasons, I have sold almost all my M1A’s–I only kept two lightweight 18" SA M1A’s in simple GI brown stocks and I’ll get rid of those as soon as I move out of CA.

I’ve seen more M1A and M14 clones break recently than I care to contemplate–particularly the SA M1A SOCOM’s; in fact, I’ve yet to see a M1A SOCOM make it through a multi-day carbine course without breaking. If you do decide to get an M1A/M14 clone, make sure you send it to someone like Smith Enterprise or Fulton to have all the current manufactured poor quality parts replaced. M1A’s can be made very accurate if you spend a lot of money…but they don’t stay accurate very long. Buy 3 of them, so that at any given time you can have one that shoots well, one for training, one that is being re-built… Mounting optics is a bit harder than on an AR15/AR10 type rifle. Again, Smith Enterprise and Fulton Armory are good sources.

Two years ago after teaching my section of the course at a SWAT carbine school presented by a large PD here, I decided to stick around and run through the rest of the day’s drills and tests with the students. However, instead of using an optic equipped 6920 like normal, I chose to run an old school, iron sighted, CA civilian legal, 18" M1A that had all the crappy SA parts replaced with USGI ones. Last time I shot a SWAT course with iron sights was back in 2000 with a Colt 6520 carbine. The young studs were giving me a hard time about my old “musket”…until we started shooting. I was surprised how well things went–dumping 20 rounds into a stationary head size target at 100 m was easy, close in CQB drills and shooting on the move went well, and some scenario based tests (including simulated one arm injuries) posed no problems. The rifle fired 500 rounds of 155 gr Hornady AMAX with no failures to feed or function. In this era, I FAR prefer an AR15 in 5.56 mm or 6.8 mm, but it was interesting to see how well the old dog (both the rifle and me) could run and it was a lot of fun! One area that could be an issue on M14/M1A’s is the safety location–this is a huge liability concern for an LE rifle. The poor safety location on an M14/M1A is MOST definitely an issue for demanding LE tactical use, especially for entries/CQB–in fact, it pretty much makes it a non-starter for those missions.

The only reason I continue to own M1A’s is that they are still “legal” and not restricted as “assault weapons” under CA’s asinine laws (unlike AR’s, AK’s, FAL’s, etc…). M1A’s work OK as simple, rugged iron or possibly RDS sighted rifles of limited long term accuracy potential, kind of like a big AK. For mounting optics or any other precision role, there are far better choices. The only justification for my M1A’s existence is to reside in the trunk of my POV’s. For every other situation, I am reaching for the far superior ergonomics of an AR15. Now that viable modern designed 7.62x51 mm carbines are coming to the market, for example the 16” KAC SR25 EM and LaRue 16” OBR, I might consider switching over from an AR15 for the superior terminal performance offered by the 7.62x51 mm cartridge—but I would NEVER willingly choose to purchase an M1A in this day and age for serious/duty/precision use, given the substantially better options available in most areas.

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/321104735?r=987104735#987104735

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4706084761/m/197103673?r=939103673#939103673

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/5131010204/p/1

9

It seems that getting the performance I want from the platform will be more of an undertaking than I thought. For the most part the general consensus is pointing towards just checking out an ar-10, and I may end up doing just that.

I was looking for some info, and I got exactly what I was looking for, thanks for all the help.

10

Doesn’t mean you can’t still have one to enjoy.

There’s a lot to be said for the confidence inspiring feel of a 21" barreled M14 on the range.

It was America’s last battle rifle. A piece of history.

And if I lived behind the lines in Kali like Doc does, I’d have an 18" Criterion barreled M14 Bush Rifle with an Aimpoint T-1 and light on it in a GI synthetic stock, just about like his set up there, rather than one of the neutered AK’s or AR’s that I’d be allowed to have there.

I know guys who grab their M1 Garands and Carbines out of the safe to watch Band of Brothers. Nothing at all wrong with that.

But, if you’re looking for a precision tack driver, the AR system starts out being intrinsically more accurate, easier to keep that way, easier to mount optics to, and far superior ergonomics.

What’s your price range?

11

Oh well of course I may still get one, it just wouldn’t be for what I planned.

Budget? I had planned to drop anywhere around 2,000 for the parts to make a fairly decent rifle(plus or minus a few hundred depending on how long it would take to acquire parts, if its gonna take a while, then the gun-fund has time to build up)

Again, until about a few days ago I had just started looking into it, and I don’t exactly know how much everything in all would cost - but the setup in mind was just a basic wood stock and irons to begin with. Don’t need to factor in optics for later down the line, as I already have that covered, and don’t need to factor in ammo, because I already have that as well.

I have been saving up a lot for my next purchase, and money doesn’t always have an opportunity to go to the gun-fund, so I don’t mind paying out a little more buck at once for a better bang in the long run. If the springfields are going to fail on me, I don’t particularly want to put more time/energy/and most importantly cash into it.

12

Thanks DOC. I’ve been thinking about replacing my M1A Bush with an AR 10. All these post have put me one step closer. But for FUN, the M1A is fun to me to shoot.

13

Fun is always a good reason to go shooting and have a rifle; whether an M1A is right for someone all depends on what they want to use it for–the key is to not have any illusions about capabilities…

14

The M14 has been my favorite rifle since the first time I picked one up on the firing line in the Navy. So much so that I had been wanting one for years. I have AR’s in a few different flavors and styles, and you can’t argue with all of the statements made in this thread, but when I just recently came across the right deal I abandoned my current AR project for an Armscorp M14 clone.

I LOVE my M14. I shoot it better then I do any of my AR’s (with irons), but if I needed to grab a long gun in a fight, I would probably go with one of my go fast AR’s.

15

Its is hard to add to what the others hear have said, but I’ll add a couple of points. I have a great love for the M14 platform and I honestly can’t decide which I like more, the M14 or AR15. Keep in mind that the M14 is NOT going to be an alternative to an AR15. The M14 is a battle rifle and has all the advantages and disadvantages of its type. I have owned M14 patter rifles for almost 20 years now and there is far more about them that I don’t know than I know, but I am learning. Here are my thoughts.

You mentioned that you wanted MOA or sub MOA accuracy. MOA accuracy is about all that can be reasonably expected out of a Match Grade M14. Some will shoot better, but you really can’t expect it. Also keep in mind that a glass bedded rifle will shoot loose its bedding every couple thousand rounds or so (depending on factors) and will need to have maintenance done to the bedding. This is something that you can do if you are willing to do a little armoring on your own, but it is far more maintenance intensive than a match grade AR15 will be. If you are envisioning high volumes of fire, I would stay away from glass bedded stocks for this reason. Your other option here would be to use a modern stock such as the JAE or TROY. These stocks will allow you to have accuracy approaching a glass bedded stock (as long as your rifle has other match conditioning attributes), but they will end up costing you $700-1000 over the cost of the rifle its self. By this point you are looking at $2200-3000 for the rifle! For this amount, you could go gung ho on a AR-10 pattern rifle.

Optics mounting is also problematic. While the M14 has wonderful iron sights, it wasn’t designed for optics. The cheep mounts will not give you good results so you are looking at another $150-300 for a good mount. If you have a regular stock, this will prove problematic as you will not get an adequate cheek weld. You can solve this by adding a cheek raiser or rest. The modern stocks like the JAE (as well as Springfield’s M21 stock) have these built in.

All that said, the M14 is a joy to shoot and will certainly provide you a lot of pride of ownership. The M14 despite having the shortest lifespan as a general issue rifle in the US military also enjoys the fact of having the longest lifespan of use on any rifle in the US military. Many consider the M14 to be the ultimate evolution of the “riflemans rifle.” With proper maintenance they will provide you with years of highly reliable and accurate service.

As far as semantics, I call them all M14s or M14 type or pattern rifle. M1As are Springfield’s name for their M14 just like M&P15 is Smiths name for their AR15. If I had a real M21, then I might call it that, but I’d probably still call it a 14.

If I were looking for a good all around M14 pattern rifle to fulfill my needs (and cost not being an option) I would go with an 18 inch Criterion barreled rifle in a JAE stock with a unitized gas system and match conditioned GI parts. Such a rifle would be able to give me an honest 1-2MOA out to 500 meters but still be a little shorter than my National Match rifle. We will see if I ever turn my Socom into such a beast.

16

Cobra,

you bring up a lot of good points, and what you have said really addressed some of the things I was wondering about. Others as well as you have mentioned that accuracy or more appropriately “precision accuracy” will be hard to maintain with traditional bedding jobs. I have put aside around 2,000-2,500 dollars for my start into the m14 world, and from what you are saying it seems that this would be enough to buy into a chassis system.

However, the dilemma I find myself running into is that I really do just want to start out with a wood stock and simplicity, but to maintain my standard of accuracy with a wood stock will in fact be just the opposite, requiring eternal vigilance in maintaining my rifle. It could be that I may be over-estimating the actual complexity of maintaining an m14, but again, I have never owned one, much less had time to tinker with one so I guess what I’m asking is whether or not it will be a hassle.

As far as money goes compared to other platforms such as an ar-10, I guess the issue is not so much how much I could be getting for the same money with another type of firearm, because I do in fact want to get an m14, but more that I am able to get the most out of my budget and get reasonable results with the route I eventually decide on.

17

I think it really depends on what you want the rifle for. Others have said that before me and to use the new buzz term “the mission drives the gear.”

If you want a rifle that will deliver good accuracy, is absolutely beautiful to behold, has historical significance, and that you can shoot service rifle matches with, a nice National Match rifle would be the way to go. You would be looking at about $2000+ and would have the issues associated with a glass bedded rifle. One thing I would recommend is look for an older M14 that has mostly GI parts on it. As others mentioned, after about Y2K, SAI started using more and more commercial parts and some of these (but not all) have dubious reputations. Most rifles people buy are really safe queens and even if the bedding is loose, it is way cheaper to have the bedding repaired (skim bedding) than it would be to replace the bolt group and operating rod with GI parts. Even if you find an older rack grade rifle with GI parts, it might be cheaper in the long run to buy that rifle and have it match conditioned. A rack grade M14 should be about a 2-3 MOA gun.

If on the other hand you want to build rifle on a modern stock platform I wouldn’t waste my money on a New Match gun (no use in paying for bedding if you don’t use it). If you are wanting a 20 inch platform, get yourself one of SAI’s “Loaded” rifles which includes a 20" Krieger barrel, match sights, and some other upgrades. Or find yourself a nice used rack grade rifle. Keep in mind that you will still not have a match gas system so there is still some room for improvement. This should run you a little under $1500 and then you can drop it into the JAE or TROY stock. If you go this route, your rifle really won’t require any more maintenance than would an AR type rifle. The problem you will have is that the M14 is still a lot harder to “gunsmith” than an AR platform is, so things like barrel replacements, bolt swaps, and the like will most likely require you to take it to a gunsmith who is familiar with the platform.

If you want a shorter barrel, then you are looking at the “Scout” or the Socom rifles. The Scout is what Springfield used to call the “Bush” and has a 18" barrel. To my knowledge, none were ever offered from the factory with match grade barrels. Both the Scouts and Socoms are newer rifles and as a result will have mostly commercial parts on them. All Socoms and the “Squad Scout” have forward optic mounts for scout scopes. If you can find a used Bush rifle, this might be the best option as you will have more GI parts.

On receivers, the LRB receivers are nice and closer to GI spec (but still not a true “forged” receiver) but I really have not heard of too many issues with SAI cast receivers falling apart on their owners. There have been some issues with dimensional tolerances on the SAI receivers that can come up when mounting 3 point scope mounts such as the ARMS#18. I would rather save my money on the receiver and spend it in other places (GI parts, stock, etc), but that is me.

On commercial parts, there is a lot of debate about them going on (just like on the AR15 platform). The general agreement is that GI spec parts are better, but the problem is that they stopped making them years ago, Klinton chopped up thousands of M14s, and the Military is now hogging up all the M14 parts they can get. This is making the parts more and more expensive for the civilian market, thus there may be no alternative to commercial parts in some areas. Just like with ARs, if you have a rifle with commercial parts, consider upgraded them as you go. One good thing, if you buy a SAI rifle, they will repair any parts that break for free - but that will not be any comfort when your op rod breaks when the goblins are at the door.

Oh well, I have babbled enough. Hope my thoughts helped a little, like I say, I have been a fan of the 14 for years and have been studying it, but there is so much I don’t know about it. m14tfl.com is to the M14 what M4carbine.net is to the AR. Go there and your head will explode with information. Also, should you pick up an M14, get yourself Scott Duff’s “M14 Owners Guide” - this is an excellent book and will help you understand and maintain your rifle (it also made me realize how much I don’t know).

18

I was positive I was going to finally buy my first M14 variant this month, a black 16" or 18" SA Scout. Now I am not so sure.

19

I would suggest that you go to Smithenterprise.com and see what has been done to the M14 weapons platform to bring it up to date. The new technologies that are being used allow the platform to keep a very high degree of accuracy for a very long time. The site has information that explains all of this and is quite informative.

I have one of the Crazy Horse varients and so does a friend of mine. We are both extremely pleased and have put quite a few rounds down range. You will pay to have a rifle built up (mine started with a Poly-tech forged receiver).

This rifle shot MOA to 1000 yds. at Ft. Benning with Match ammo. It shot less than 10" at 1000 yds. with handloads. That’s less than MOA. By the way it cost less and outshot it’s competition, side by side,which was the new SASS rifle being tested. I believe this is also outlined on the Smith site. I believe the SASS rifle is around $10 to $15K a copy, but I’m not positive about that.

My experience is different than others have experienced and this is JMHO from what I have also seen and experienced.

Gunsouth

20

Alright, first off, Investment castign is NOT the same as just mold casting where the metal is basically tin and lead like “Hot wheels” car.

People blow the whole Investment cast Vs. Forged thing way out of proportion. A springfield Investment cast reciever will outlast several barrels and the owner of the rifle, Lee Emerson wrote a book where they tested a Springfield Reciever with Cases packed with pistol powder and it still took twelve rounds of that way over pressure dangerous crap to even make the reciever start to fail.

Thats said, I haven’t inspected one, but i suspect the SOCOM M1A has a larger gas port due to less barrel in front of the gas cylinder, this would cause a much more violent recoil impulse that would be be beating the hell out of the everythign behind the operating rod and bolt, and in the M1A the hammer is impacted by the bolt causing it to re cock, and SOCOMS break hammers. The whole action/reaction thing somethign the chain WILL GIVE if the force is stronger than normal.

I would get a Scout of standard length barrel if in question(The scout still has a longer barrel than the SOCOM, but is still short enough for inside work.