Looking for a 308

[MistWolf]

@FromMyColdDeadHand

It is more, but it starts with SR25/DPMS mags. If you want to buy something else, and if you are going FAL mags, you are really getting far off the reservation.

Don’t believe me or think I’m wrong, its your money, enjoy your FAL mag’d AR.

Oh, I am going with FAL mags, but for my FAL. My point is that if magazine selection were the most important criteria, you’ll be picking a LAR308 because FAL mags work, are battle proven, very rugged, last a long time and can be found fairly cheap. While a good magazine is a must for any rifle, there is much more to choosing an AR 308.

Just because a lower is compatible with a P-Mag doesn’t automatically make it a good choice. There has to be a better reason. The DPMS LR308 upper is made from “Thick walled, extruded from 7129-T5 Aluminum”. While extrusions make for good parts, I’m not sure it’s better than forging. Is 7129 picked because it’s more durable than 7075 or, which is more likely, because the alloy has better properties for extruding than 7075? (I haven’t researched this yet). Why is it thick walled? Does it need beefing up to be stronger? Thicker walls means more weight.

The DPMS lower is “Milled from a solid billet of 6061-T6 aluminum”. No thank you on both counts. 6061 is less durable than 7075 and billet lowers aren’t as strong as forged. While the DPMS LR308 accepts P-Mags, it has features that are less than desirable.

Let’s take a look at the LMT- It’s P-Mag compatible. It’s HOLY COW- over $2800! That’s a pile of money to be spending just to get a rifle using cheaper magazines than an AR10! They didn’t list what the receivers were made from, but at that price, they’d better be good. We already know what kind of sticker shock (and yes, quality too) we’ll get looking at KAC.

The LaRue PredatAR is $2500. Still a chunk of change to avoid buying the more expensive AR10 mags. However, the Larue does come with a free float forearm and the AR10A4 has the standard handguards. LaRue shows the PredatAR receivers being made from 7075, but they are billet. Another plus for the PredatAR is it’s lightweight.

I haven’t found what alloy RR is using for their LAR308 receivers or if they are forged or billet. Also, I don’t know if FAL mags work well with the AR type bolt.

The AR10, while it isn’t P-Mag compatible has much to offer. Receivers are forged from 7175, an alloy tougher than 7075 and both are tougher than 6061. The second gen AR10 magazines are an improvement over the original versions although reports of their reliability have been anecdotal and remain unproved. The AR10A4 isn’t as light as the PredatAR, but it’s lighter than other AR 308s. Also, the upper & lowers are available stripped for a reasonable cost and assembled to the shooter’s liking.

308 P-Mags, by all accounts, are good magazines, but an AR 308 lower has to have more going for it than being “P-Mag Compatible”. KAC & LMT are expensive. DPMS isn’t up to spec. While other options remain to be explored, the AR10 and it’s magazine isn’t looking so bad, after all

[mstennes]

@148259

LMT is the best bang for the buck.

This, I just did a MWS, after going around and around between the MWS and the OBR. When it came down to it, the MWS, was a little cheaper, I can swap barrels out so I can/could change calibers or I can set it up with a 20" SS barrel for long range, or put in the 16" for short work. The price differance between it and a Knights was to me a very high quailty scope, some extra mags, and some 175 gr match rounds. Another thing a person told me, which are accepted by the military, or I should say in military use?

[mstennes]

@MistWolf

Oh, I am going with FAL mags, but for my FAL. My point is that if magazine selection were the most important criteria, you’ll be picking a LAR308 because FAL mags work, are battle proven, very rugged, last a long time and can be found fairly cheap. While a good magazine is a must for any rifle, there is much more to choosing an AR 308.

Just because a lower is compatible with a P-Mag doesn’t automatically make it a good choice. There has to be a better reason. The DPMS LR308 upper is made from “Thick walled, extruded from 7129-T5 Aluminum”. While extrusions make for good parts, I’m not sure it’s better than forging. Is 7129 picked because it’s more durable than 7075 or, which is more likely, because the alloy has better properties for extruding than 7075? (I haven’t researched this yet). Why is it thick walled? Does it need beefing up to be stronger? Thicker walls means more weight.

The DPMS lower is “Milled from a solid billet of 6061-T6 aluminum”. No thank you on both counts. 6061 is less durable than 7075 and billet lowers aren’t as strong as forged. While the DPMS LR308 accepts P-Mags, it has features that are less than desirable.

Let’s take a look at the LMT- It’s P-Mag compatible. It’s HOLY COW- over $2800! That’s a pile of money to be spending just to get a rifle using cheaper magazines than an AR10! They didn’t list what the receivers were made from, but at that price, they’d better be good. We already know what kind of sticker shock (and yes, quality too) we’ll get looking at KAC.

The LaRue PredatAR is $2500. Still a chunk of change to avoid buying the more expensive AR10 mags. However, the Larue does come with a free float forearm and the AR10A4 has the standard handguards. LaRue shows the PredatAR receivers being made from 7075, but they are billet. Another plus for the PredatAR is it’s lightweight.

I haven’t found what alloy RR is using for their LAR308 receivers or if they are forged or billet. Also, I don’t know if FAL mags work well with the AR type bolt.

The AR10, while it isn’t P-Mag compatible has much to offer. Receivers are forged from 7175, an alloy tougher than 7075 and both are tougher than 6061. The second gen AR10 magazines are an improvement over the original versions although reports of their reliability have been anecdotal and remain unproved. The AR10A4 isn’t as light as the PredatAR, but it’s lighter than other AR 308s. Also, the upper & lowers are available stripped for a reasonable cost and assembled to the shooter’s liking.

308 P-Mags, by all accounts, are good magazines, but an AR 308 lower has to have more going for it than being “P-Mag Compatible”. KAC & LMT are expensive. DPMS isn’t up to spec. While other options remain to be explored, the AR10 and it’s magazine isn’t looking so bad, after all

I just picked mine up for 2400.00 shipped, I think in reguard to the PMag issue, its no so much the use of PMags as it is, magazine compatabilty, between 308 based AR’s. Thats what ruled the AR10 out right off the bat for me, very spendy mags, and only modded M1A mags will work. Fal mags while cheap, never worked favorably in 308 based AR’s, IIRC, most tried in the begining to make them work, and most all gave up, why?

[MistWolf]

While the modified M14 mags do work in the AR10, the current Gen II AR10 magazines are more than just modified M14 magazines.

I’m not so sure why folks are hung up on universal P-Mag compatibility for personally owned AR 308s. Not saying they are wrong, I just just understand the imperative. Military & police, yes, I understand the necessity

[OTO27]

@mstennes

I just picked mine up for 2400.00 shipped, I think in reguard to the PMag issue, its no so much the use of PMags as it is, magazine compatabilty, between 308 based AR’s. Thats what ruled the AR10 out right off the bat for me, very spendy mags, and only modded M1A mags will work. Fal mags while cheap, never worked favorably in 308 based AR’s, IIRC, most tried in the begining to make them work, and most all gave up, why?

I payed $2,299 for mine, dont know were people get these figures. 2800 for a SS barrel maybe.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

@MistWolf

While the modified M14 mags do work in the AR10, the current Gen II AR10 magazines are more than just modified M14 magazines.

I’m not so sure why folks are hung up on universal P-Mag compatibility for personally owned AR 308s. Not saying they are wrong, I just just understand the imperative. Military & police, yes, I understand the necessity

It’s not that the FAL or AR10 mags are inferior, it is just a systems issue in an evolutionary sense. The SR25/DPMS mag pattern has won the popularity prize. I think more and more rifles will come out for those mags, which means more mags made, which reinforces that there will be more rilfes in that pattern. More rifles, more barrels, more uppers, more parts- all of which may not be AR10 compatible. Small differenes end up affecting long term success.

Pre-64 Winchester actions may be better than standard Rem700 bolt actions, but the Rem700 is easier to smith on because of its design. This lead to more of them being used for accurate rifles, which snowballed to a huge market for Rem700 parts and services. You can buy a FN SPR action, a Ruger action, or any other fine bolt action, but the Rem700 is the ‘standard’.

I think that is what we’ll see in 308ARs. If I had a AR10, I wouldn’t sell it for a SR25 pattern rifle- but if I were looking for a new rifle, I’d put it into a SR25 pattern rifle. Which is what I did.

Also, if you are worried about money, don’t buy an 308AR. There is nothing cheap about them. If you are worried about $500 here or couple hundred bucks there, they might not be the rifle for you. In the non-Military/LEO/Hunting market, there is nothing at the range that a 308AR does better than an AR15- other than make the ROs job easier calling hits on steel.

Mark

[caelumatra]

@FromMyColdDeadHand

It’s not that the FAL or AR10 mags are inferior, it is just a systems issue in an evolutionary sense. The SR25/DPMS mag pattern has won the popularity prize. I think more and more rifles will come out for those mags, which means more mags made, which reinforces that there will be more rilfes in that pattern. More rifles, more barrels, more uppers, more parts- all of which may not be AR10 compatible. Small differenes end up affecting long term success.

Pre-64 Winchester actions may be better than standard Rem700 bolt actions, but the Rem700 is easier to smith on because of its design. This lead to more of them being used for accurate rifles, which snowballed to a huge market for Rem700 parts and services. You can buy a FN SPR action, a Ruger action, or any other fine bolt action, but the Rem700 is the ‘standard’.

I think that is what we’ll see in 308ARs. If I had a AR10, I wouldn’t sell it for a SR25 pattern rifle- but if I were looking for a new rifle, I’d put it into a SR25 pattern rifle. Which is what I did.

Also, if you are worried about money, don’t buy an 308AR. There is nothing cheap about them. If you are worried about $500 here or couple hundred bucks there, they might not be the rifle for you. In the non-Military/LEO/Hunting market, there is nothing at the range that a 308AR does better than an AR15- other than make the ROs job easier calling hits on steel.

Mark

lol you stated more eloquently what I was rambling together a posted response to this. But I agree 100%

(I even had an analogy like yours lol)

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

@caelumatra

lol you stated more eloquently what I was rambling together a posted response to this. But I agree 100%

(I even had an analogy like yours lol)

Writing that beat doing all those TPS reports for all my bosses.

[MistWolf]

@FromMyColdDeadHand

It’s not that the FAL or AR10 mags are inferior, it is just a systems issue in an evolutionary sense. The SR25/DPMS mag pattern has won the popularity prize. I think more and more rifles will come out for those mags, which means more mags made, which reinforces that there will be more rilfes in that pattern. More rifles, more barrels, more uppers, more parts- all of which may not be AR10 compatible. Small differenes end up affecting long term success.

Pre-64 Winchester actions may be better than standard Rem700 bolt actions, but the Rem700 is easier to smith on because of its design. This lead to more of them being used for accurate rifles, which snowballed to a huge market for Rem700 parts and services. You can buy a FN SPR action, a Ruger action, or any other fine bolt action, but the Rem700 is the ‘standard’.

I think that is what we’ll see in 308ARs. If I had a AR10, I wouldn’t sell it for a SR25 pattern rifle- but if I were looking for a new rifle, I’d put it into a SR25 pattern rifle. Which is what I did.

Also, if you are worried about money, don’t buy an 308AR. There is nothing cheap about them. If you are worried about $500 here or couple hundred bucks there, they might not be the rifle for you. In the non-Military/LEO/Hunting market, there is nothing at the range that a 308AR does better than an AR15- other than make the ROs job easier calling hits on steel.

Mark

You make some good points and while I realize the AR 308- for that matter any 308 battle rifle- isn’t a cheap proposition, I don’t make enough money to justify a KAC. I also don’t feel that the $2800 LMT (MSRP taken from their website, not street price) offers enough advantage over the AR10 to justify selecting it for P-Mag compatibility. Even at $2299, which (within my budget) is a much more palatable price, I’d rather just collect up the parts & build it the way I want.

Instead of telling folks “the LMT/KAC/OBR is P-Mag (read: cheaper) compatible” tell them what superior performance the rifles offer. At these prices, P-Mag compatibility is the least important feature

[kwg020]

Check out the Armilites and the Aeroprecisions here.

http://762sass.com/catalog.php

The Aeroprecision is California compliant and not on the banned gun list if that is where you are from.

kwg

[markm]

@MistWolf

M14s when properly assembled from quality parts are accurate and reliable.

Unfortunately no company makes these.

[MistWolf]

LRB, Smith Enterprises both put together good M14s. SAIs can be good, but sometimes require a bit of tweaking

[duece71]

@OTO27

I payed $2,299 for mine, dont know were people get these figures. 2800 for a SS barrel maybe.

I got mine for $2000 out the door. Ok, It was “slightly” used and only came with 1 KAC marked magazine. Mine couldn’t have had more than 50 rounds through it. The gun was clean as a whistle when I broke it down and took it apart for a pre range check/clean.

[kaiservontexas]

I’ll take argument with the 700 being standard.

The pre-64 is the Mauser improved.

What smith is a smith if they cannot work on a Mauser, when it comes to expertise in bolt-action rifles?

The fact the action is still used also means it is still known.

Just cause the 700 is cheaper means nothing . . .

end sidetrack of the thread

If it were me, I would go SR-25 pattern because most of the GOOD .308 ARs come that way.

Just as I will never part with a Pre-64 Win. action for a bolt-action rifle, cause GOOD riles come that way.

[Darkop]

For the OP
I have a had a Noveske N6 14.5" pinned FS for about 3 years now. Good size, maneuverable, light recoil(W/H3) shoots 1 MOA with match ammo and I have not drank a pot of coffee. Shoots SA surplus into 2-4MOA. Is a blast to shoot at 800yds. AR10 GenII Mags work 100% and I have box full of them. Gets HEAVY when carrying it all day with 25 rd mags and spares in your vest. I have found that an adjustable stock on an AR10 is much more beneficial than even a 5.56 gun. I did shoot a friends OBR a couple of weeks ago and it was very smooth and accurate!

Ultimately it’s your decision, just be prepared to spend money on .308. Get a case of SA surplus and live with the 2-4 MOA

Good luck in your decision

Until that day,
Darkop

[148259]

@Darkop

Ultimately it’s your decision, just be prepared to spend money on .308. Get a case of SA surplus and live with the 2-4 MOA

Good luck in your decision

Until that day,
Darkop

Ya, it’s too bad 308 has gotten so expensive.

[why1504]

Thanks for all the great comments. I have not decided which direction I will go yet but am leaning toward the KAC or LMT choices.

[mstennes]

@OTO27

I payed $2,299 for mine, dont know were people get these figures. 2800 for a SS barrel maybe.

Exactly, I ordered mine from a dealer who had one in stock new, after calling around to find the best price, when you figure 2400.00 out the door thats damn good, as I had to pay for shipping, sales tax and my FFL’s transfer fee.

[mstennes]

@MistWolf

While the modified M14 mags do work in the AR10, the current Gen II AR10 magazines are more than just modified M14 magazines.

I’m not so sure why folks are hung up on universal P-Mag compatibility for personally owned AR 308s. Not saying they are wrong, I just just understand the imperative. Military & police, yes, I understand the necessity

The PMag part was not even part of my descision, my descision was based solely on what was going to work best for me. I looked hard at KAC, LaRue and LMT, the KAC’s price ruled it out, for what I spent on the LMT, I could outfit it the way I wanted and be under or even with the KAC price, the LaRues down fall IMO is that barrel changes would be very, very difficult with the way they mount their rail. I like the part of magazine compatibility, which is what KAC, LaRue, LMT, DPMS have in common, and as said above you will see more and more of those magazines in the maket place. I also feel that new 308 AR’s will also follow this trend of the KAC format. I’m not sure what Remingtons 308 uses, but I would bet its KAC? Thats based on the fact of the same ownership, of Remington and DPMS. I had a AR10T and sold it a few years back, and decided I wanted another, and the LMT with all the barrel options available, was the clear winner for me. I can use my 16" CL with a ACOG, or my 20" Stainless with my 3.5x15 Nightforce, I have not done this, so I’m not sure what the zero differance will be on the change over, but I have that option, if I want. I also like the monolithic upper, sure its heavy, but show me a accurate rifle thats not, heck show me a light 308 based AR.

[mstennes]

@FromMyColdDeadHand

It’s not that the FAL or AR10 mags are inferior, it is just a systems issue in an evolutionary sense. The SR25/DPMS mag pattern has won the popularity prize. I think more and more rifles will come out for those mags, which means more mags made, which reinforces that there will be more rilfes in that pattern. More rifles, more barrels, more uppers, more parts- all of which may not be AR10 compatible. Small differenes end up affecting long term success.

Pre-64 Winchester actions may be better than standard Rem700 bolt actions, but the Rem700 is easier to smith on because of its design. This lead to more of them being used for accurate rifles, which snowballed to a huge market for Rem700 parts and services. You can buy a FN SPR action, a Ruger action, or any other fine bolt action, but the Rem700 is the ‘standard’.

I think that is what we’ll see in 308ARs. If I had a AR10, I wouldn’t sell it for a SR25 pattern rifle- but if I were looking for a new rifle, I’d put it into a SR25 pattern rifle. Which is what I did.

Also, if you are worried about money, don’t buy an 308AR. There is nothing cheap about them. If you are worried about $500 here or couple hundred bucks there, they might not be the rifle for you. In the non-Military/LEO/Hunting market, there is nothing at the range that a 308AR does better than an AR15- other than make the ROs job easier calling hits on steel.

Mark

^–This–^