Long Range Carbine Class...6933?

Hey folks,

I just registered for a Fieldcraft Survival Long Range Carbine class next month. Looks like shooting out to 600 yds. I’ve got a Unity FAST Aimpoint T2/3XC Magnifier combo, which they say will be enough.

My question is, will my 6933 with Dead Air Sandman be able to reach out to 600 yds? Or will I need a longer barreled carbine for this kind of class? I haven’t shot past 100 yds with 5.56 since I was in the Marine Corps 15 years ago, so forgive my ignorance.

Would it be better to shoot suppressed or unsuppressed, especially with the lightweight barrel profile?

I could buy a 14.5 upper if need be, but I’d rather spend that money training on another class.

Thanks!

That’s asking a lot out of an 11.5 inch barrel and consistently hitting 600 yards I personally would use a 16 or 18 inch barrel.

My AR pistol is questionable past 300 yards but it’s a PSA build.

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You can do it with a 6933 but your going to be lobbing rounds at the distant targets. You need to be intimately familiar with your holdover requirements at various ranges in order to have any success. It is work to shoot 400+ with a 14.5" barrel. I don’t recommend it with the 6933. But, it will be a learning experience with either one.

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I think you might be adding an unnecessary handicap that could detract from your learning experience. In the event that you do struggle at those distances, you might even detract from the learning experience of others in the class by monopolizing instructor time to get you where you need to be. If you are not already proficient with that rifle at those distances, a class is probably not the best place to do it.

I absolutely would not, especially here in CO. I did an LPVO class with a 1-6 Razor in VA a few years ago and think they had reduced silhouettes that became difficult to see at 400 on 6x. Granted there were objects like trees in the background that you had to differentiate the target from, but still, I wouldn’t have wanted less than 6x for that.

For barrel, I recently did some shooting (new army qual if you want to see the COF on YouTube) with a MK18 out to 300m. Granted this was with an unmagnified EXPS so I couldn’t see where my missed were going, but I struggled like crazy. I hit everything up to 150, had a few hits at 150, and missed everything beyond 200m. I shot it once (40 rounds) did terrible, messed around with strelok to approximate holds for the 855A1 I was shooting, and then burned about 20 rounds at the 300m target, only hitting once. It was super windy (Colorado plains windy) so I think I was fighting wind more than bullet drop, but I’m willing to bet the extra velocity out of a 14.5 would’ve helped the rounds fight the wind more.

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With the help of a spotter I have successfully made hits to 440yds using a Aimpoint Comp M4 with SIG Juliet 4X magnifier [nice piece of kit]. My barrel is a Colt pencil cut to 14.7" P&W. I was using Federal 55gr 5.56 ammo.

What size target? That’s usually an important aspect that people omit.

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I look at it this way. You’re probably spending good, hard earned money on the class. You probably want to get the most of out it. Do you want to roll the dice with the 11.5 and risk having a miserable time cus you can’t hit anything? Or maybe reschedule the class till you get some different gear to allow you to get more out of the class. I think Wake27 gave some good advice.

I haven’t attended a class from mike, but could you post more specifics about the syllabus?

I DO have a lot of experience shooting past 400 with all kinds of semi autos.

Dont take this the wrong way, but spending money for a class, driving distance, and ammunition cost would be completely waisted on that gun. Sign up for a class that actually suits that kind of carbine or get a proper gun for that class. It’s like trying to use a spoon to eat a really nice steak. Sure you may still get some in your mouth but the experience would be more enjoyed with the proper tools.

For example; this week I was out shooting a 6" plate at 500 yards and a bowling pin shaped steel at 830. Optics almost matter more than the gun itself. Just putting a proper 1-8 on your 6933 would come a long way. It would still be a pain though.

I may take you up on this offer, I really appreciate it.

I do have a 6920 that I could throw a 15" MCMR on and an Atlas Bipod for about $250. I can’t do much about the optics situation, my T2/3x Magnifier is gonna have to suffice.

Here’s the class syllabus:

The Long-Range Carbine focuses on advanced marksmanship concepts utilizing a carbine out to 600 yards. Training will increase proficiency in employing carbines, optics, ballistics, and alternate shooting positions to maximize hit probability at extended ranges.

Training is designed for those with intermediate weapon handling abilities and experience.

We recommend wearing comfortable shoes and long pants.

Required Minimum Equipment:
Carbine
2 magazines
Optic (variable power magnified scope is recommended or red dot optic with a 3X magnifier)
Bipod
Sling
Rear support bag/s
Eye protection
Ear protection
Notebook, pen, databook, or ballistic app (ex. Hornady 4 DOF, Ballistic ARC, BulletFlightM, StrelokPro)
Tools for stocks, optics
Water/Snacks
Rain, cold, or inclement weather clothing

Required Ammunition:
300 rounds minimum

$375 for a 5-hour class seems rich.
Course description is pretty lean.
Gear list looks like they’re going to touch a lot, in a very narrow window of time.
Shooting “out to 600” doesn’t tell you where most of your shooting will be, giving you a better idea of equipment viability.
SBR with a service barrel makes it harder. You could stretch out an SBR with precision barrel, much farther than you think.
As you stretch out with your gun/optic, you can’t dial your up and you’ll hold your wind, so you’re dancing in open space - and missing at distance.
More an LPVO course. Unless they’re touching 600 as a gee-whiz exercise and everything else is 100-300, telling you you’re GTG isn’t fair to you.

IPSC man size.

As a former Marine you should be familiar with the size of an E-type target at 600.

Even at 5000-6000-odd feet in Northern Colorado you’re asking a lot from a Commando – especially with standard Ball ammo.

$375 might be reasonable for the training, but I wouldn’t.

There are regular combat matches held within an hour of Denver better than anything offered to active duty soldiers. My son shoots those any chance he gets.

Colorado Rifle and Pistol Club and Buffalo Creek Rifle Club offer matches that start at 600 yards and go to 300 shooting sustained and rapid-fire, and 200 and 100 with “Snap” exposures and moving targets, then close in to 25 yards to 10 yards with a pistol. You’ll probably get more out of training for and shooting in these than converting expensive ammo into noise.

A 6920 and ACOG should be your minimum.

Here’s the course of fire for Buffalo Creek (my kid shoots this with a rack-grade M4A1 with ACOG, loaded with 69 Tipped Sierra Match Kings and a Beretta):

COURSE OF FIRE
2-Gun Rifle-Pistol Match

Rifle Phase: Relay 1 fires at 600, 500, 300, and 200 yds. Pit change and repeat COF for Relay 2.

Pistol Phase: Relay 1 fires pistol at 25 yds. repeat COF for relay 2. Pistols may be holstered but must be “shown safe”, chamber empty, in “weapon condition four”

Sight-in Phase: Coaching is allowed. Once the shooter is zeroed at the 600yd line standard come-downs can be applied if the shooter does not have ballistic data.

From the 600yd line, standard come downs are 4MOA(1.2mils) down to 500yds;
7 MOA(2.0mils) down to 300yds;
and 3 MOA(0.9mils) to down 200yds.

Firearm Safety: While in pits, absolutely no handling of firearms. This includes adjusting slings, sights, or “show and tell”. On firing lines, all commands to load or commence fire will come from line officer. Unless engaged in live fire as directed, all firearms will be unloaded with an “empty chamber indicator” in place OR in “weapon condition four”, until line officer says
otherwise.

Targets: DOD M9 Target US Army 25 meter E silhouette, or equivalent 20 inch x 40 inch silhouette will
be used for both rifle and pistol phases.

No Alibis: No re-fires will be granted. Safely clear all malfunctions and resume fire until time expires.

Rifle Stages

Stage 0 - 600 YDS: Prone slow fire, 5-minutes, unlimited sighting shots, pull and mark each shot.

Stage 1 - 600 YDS: Prone slow fire, 10 record shots in 10 minutes, pull and mark each shot. All hits 5 points.

Stage 2 - 500 YDS: Prone timed fire, start in position, 10 shots in 70 seconds. All hits 5 points.

Stage 3 - 300 YDS: Prone rapid fire from standing, 10 shots in 60 seconds with a magazine change. Targets scored using ring value.

Stage 4 - 300 YDS: Sitting or kneeling sustained fire. 10 shots in 2 minutes. Targets scored at end of 2 min. Targets scored using ring value.

Stage 5 - 200 YDS:

Exposure 1 (12 seconds): Standing from high alert/ready 2 shots.

Exposure 2 (12 seconds): Standing from high alert/ready 3 shots.

Exposure 3 (30 seconds): Standing with kneeling: 2 shots from standing, followed by 3 shots kneeling.
Targets will now be scored using ring value

Stage 6 - 200 YDS: Standing moving targets. With 5 rds engage only your numbered target from the standing position. Targets will remain in numerical order. Targets will traverse approx. 75 ft at a slow pace (walking speed).

Stage 7 - 200 YDS: Sitting or kneeling moving targets. Targets will reverse and travel at a faster pace (fast walk, slow run). Engage only your numbered target with 5 shots while it traverses approx. 75 ft. Targets will now be scored all hits 5 points.

Pistol Stage

Stage 1 – 25YDS: Standing fire 5 shots, drop to kneeling, reload and fire and additional 5 shots, time limit 50 seconds. Execute a magazine change and prepare for stage 2.

Stage 2 – 25YDS-10YDS: Starting at 25 yards standing, advance abreast while firing 5 shots, safely reload while moving and fire 5 more shots while continuing to advance to the the 10 yard line, time limit 30 seconds. Targets will now be scored using ring value.

Sent you a PM.

The 6920 would probably be decent but I’d still be worried about optics for that. Even with the magnifier, an Aimpoint will be difficult as was mentioned.

Though my eyesight has been on a steady decline from staring at screens all day so that may be part of my struggles that won’t necessarily affect others.

I need to swing by d. Wilson’s shop, was hoping to do so this upcoming week or next. He went to their last one that was near me so I can ask him about it if I do see him.

Ammo is a very good point, what would you be shooting?

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I really don’t consider the 6933 to be a “Long Range Carbine”, so I’d say no. I think 16" would be minimum length but I’d probably be more comfortable with a 20" even though that is probably considered a rifle more than a carbine.

I’d go 6920 without thinking about it. You probably have an experience in front of you with that T2/3x combo. Either way you are gonna learn something about what can and cannot be done and you will have a very solid data point to work from.

OP - PM sent. :cool:

600 yards is a long ride for a 77gr 5.56. Atmospheric conditions play hell on them past about 300 most days. Getting those little low BC bullets out that far is more about reading conditions than marksmanship. It’s gonna be hard to learn on that, especially with a gun not really built for it.

So your sig leads to a training website. You offer classes including precision rifle and carbine classes. An SBR w/ aim point and magnifier is all you have? I should think it time to invest in a recce or spr set up, or at least borrow one. Sorry I don’t live closer. Maybe they have one you can borrow until you decide what you need.
Worst case, take the shorty and learn your limits. If you do take it, consider some heavy match ammo.

If I was taking a long range carbine class out 600, I’d grab my 18" SPR which has a 3-15x on it.

I’ve got a few racks of bolt guns in bigger calibers with nice glass, again, I haven’t pushed 5.56 out past 100 yds as I’ve never needed to in 15 years. Thus…taking a class to learn more about it. But, that course is being written by my teammate, who is a sniper on our team. I’d have no business teaching it!

Anyways, I’ve decided to repurpose an upper. Looking at an MCMR rail and a new barrel. Trying to keep this short enough for duty use, so anywhere from 12.5 to 14.5, no longer as I run mostly suppressed. Looking at Noveske or Ballistic Advantage Hanson barrels.

I’ll also be going with better glass, but only if my bolt gun sells in the EE first.

I was woefully unprepared for this one apparently!

As far as ammo, my agency is sponsoring me in this class with ammo, so it’s free 55gr stuff. Nothing fancy.