I have always been taught that the brass is always facing down, note the attached picture.
Understand that they are two different loads, is that their way of not confusing the loads?
Correct, it’s easier to differentiate. Also, I like to have buckshot rims bottom side and slug rims top side. Looks like they have it the same way in the photo.
Brass down works great for sitting in your closet, looking all tactical. Try running around, shooting and moving and you will leave brass-down shells like little Hansel and Gretel breadcrumbs all over the place. For serious use, brass up is the only way to go.
Brass up is pretty much a requirement when using nylon shell holders or the old Tac Star side saddles. I’ve been running brass down in the Mesa Tactical side saddles with no incidents of shells falling free.
Also I tend to keep my sidesaddles full of the same load as to limit the chances of putting the wrong payload in the gun.
When I’ve used side saddles in 3-gun, I always run brass down for shot, up for slugs. Never had a problem, and there is plenty of running and gunning in 3-gun. I’d say appreciably more than most users will see.
The only time I’ve seen dropped shells from side saddles, it’s either a worn out Tac-Star or a Mesa. When I ran side saddles for 3-Gun I was replacing the Tac-Star twice a year, so they certainly have a short service life.
I have always had my sidesaddle loaded brass down. The most recent shotgun training I took was from ITTS. The instructor strongly encouraged brass up. His thought was why give Mr. Murphy and gravity more of a chance than they deserve. Although I was resistant to it intitally I ended up not being any slower loading from the sidesaddle brass up after a couple of days. I am still training this way and have not made a final decision. For my simple mind, I find it easier under stress to not have buck and slug mixed in any one location.
There is alot of debate on the topic and several shotgun loading methods are built around shell placement. We recommend 3 Gun Gear sidesaddles to most of our customers, although I also carry Mesa. The 3 Gun are inexpensive and quickly removeable (velcroed on). They come canted so the shells are slightly quicker to load to the loading port if brass down. I see that as the prefered method, with loading to the exection port being an emergancy technic. Given a sidearm I would transition and seek cover vs the load to the ejection port for round after round.
I keep most of my load front to rear brass down, the last two-three rounds are brass up to better load to the ejection port and because they are usualy slugs. This means the majority of my shells are positioned to support my primary loading method.
The 3 Gun are inexpensive enough you can outfit multiple shotguns for the cost of one Mesa also. And finaly they are the OEM for the sidesaddle on the Remington MCS.
The first shotgun class I took back in 96 was buck at the front brass down with slugs at the rear brass up. The brass up was done to have tactile differentiation between different loads.
Then I had some classes that were all brass oriented the same way, down. This was done for speed of reloading through economy of motion.
Then I had some classes (and all since then) that were brass up, buck and slug. This was regardless of Mesa or TacStar. This was to make sure your shells didn’t fall out. “Brass to the grass means brass in the grass,” was commonly said.
With those two types of carriers the shells can migrate out under recoil or movement. If the shotgun has been in direct sunlight for several hours in a hot environment or stowed in a vehicle this is more likely to happen. Especially if the shells are left in the carrier for a long period of time.
The Mesa fix is to replace the tubing inside the shell carrier, or add a stiffener inside the tube. The TacStar fix is to remove the shells for a couple of days or replace the unit.
With the elastic units such as DMR suggests, this seems to be less of a problem, although as with anything else it will eventually get to the point that it too will no longer retain shells. It just seems to take a lot longer and works better if you want to carry brass down than either of the other two. Having just come into possession of this type of carrier, I’m looking forward to seeing just how well it does.
Brass down is slightly faster for loading through the loading port. It saves you a slight movement. This is at the risk of possibly reaching for reloads and not having them there with the shells having fallen out of the carrier.
Brass up is a little slower in that you have to make a slightly longer motion/extra step to load through the loading port, which is the price of keeping your rounds in a more secure orientation.
People are going to argue this forever, and have been.
Thanks, really great points.
Taking a defensive shotgun class shortly and will be interesting too see what they recommend for their class.
Again thanks for all the input
It is worth noting that Hans Vang has a “sidesaddle” type shellholder available now. Hans knows shotguns, so I’m sure it is a good piece of kit.
https://vangcomp.com/gun_accessories.html
I went to the TacStar 4-rounds Sidesaddles some time back. They impact the feel and balance of the shotgun less. I’ll accept the lesser capacity for my uses.
Rosco
I try to keep it as simple as possible and have heeded the wisdom of those who have seen “brass down” shells go flying out during use. The shotgun is complicated enough already under stress, I don’t see myself being able to remember and apply brass up versus brass down for this load or that load.
4 round sidesaddle, all brass-up Brenneke slugs to select slug if needed. Flite control buck in the gun.
As an aside, one of the reasons why ITTS recommends brass up is that the LAPD (where Scott Reitz of ITTS policed and trained) had actual issues with brass down guns losing rounds during deployment of shotguns.
I usually just run and gun with extra shells btw my teeth. J/K, I think brass down is quicker, but brass up is more secure. Although the new design in side saddles is making the gravity issue…well less of an issue.
I ran a Mesa side saddle for a couple of years without issues, but after seeing 4 of them shear their front mounting hardware off the receiver of 870’s in training, I switched to the VangComp DSAC. Not sure if they were improperly tightened in 3 of the cases, but in one L.E. training an officer who is credible said his was properly installed with blue loctite and checked at the start of the 4 day course. His front mounting hardware sheared off and the side saddle was spinning from recoil during a rolling thunder drill. Not saying Mesa does not make good products since this is a small sample of failures and they may have been installed incorrectly, but something to be aware of.
anything can get sheared off if you bang it hard enough… I have seen buck privates drop m4’s and shear off all kinds of shit…
Agreed, cops are no less notorious for breaking things…just to clarify these were sheared/broken from continued recoil
While that is true, the Mesa connectors have been an issue that’s been reported. As I understand it, they’re outsource for the connector hardware had a bad run. As such, the connectors have sheared/fractured. They also have had issues getting their 930 connectors to work.
I don’t put them brass up or brass down.
Side saddles are one of the biggest pieces of useless Tacticool voodoo out there.
A.) They ruin the balance and pointing characteristics of a weapon that was always meant to be Rapidly employed and aimed at CQB distances, where getting the first accurate shot off is paramount.
B.) Side Saddles are about the slowest and unsteady-est method of reloading a shot gun there is.
C.) Side Saddles impede proper slug transition loading from either the top or the bottom.
D.) Side Saddles impede the rapid employment of the weapon from the weak side muzzle down sling carry position. (You can talk about single point slings all you want, But that old bastard, who’s pretty salty with the shotgun, who’s innocently and non threateningly carrying that 18" shotgun muzzle down on the weak side, on a conventional sling, sling swivel about mid stock, is the guy you really need to watch. Because He’ll slap that thing up and kill two or three of you before your handguns clears the holster.)
I’ve always had this theory that people just think hanging shotgun shells on the side of a shotgun just makes it look more like a tacticool deadly weapon, rather than like Elmer Fudd’s turkey gun and that looking scary tacticool seems to be really important to a lot of people on the Gun Webz.
Fact is…While it doesn’t look nearly as tacticool. An Eagle (Site Sponser) Active Shooter Rig. The one with just the webbing, with a Couple of MOLLE dump bags stuck on it. One full of Buck and one full of Slugs. is much much Faster. Carries substantially more ammo and you can even add some velcro to the back and fold up the sling…For those of you that just have to hang it on the shotgun because you can’t conceive of keeping track of your gear any other way.
Now I’m sure, that someone will be along shortly to tell me that Shotgun Yoda, Sensi Billy Bob at the uber Tacticool training course says Side Saddles are the greatest thing since the invention of the pump action. Which is fine…But the old shotgun salt who taught me. Imparted this tiny bit of wisdom…and now I’m imparting it to you. “I don’t give a **** if Han’s Vang is selling them…Hans Vang’s got a house payment and a car payment like everybody else and knows there’s a demand.”
Keep in mind though your post makes some valid points Darwin, some of us are issued weapons in dept configurations which we can’t modify. Some weapons we have are equipped with side saddles, some with speed feed stocks. All are mission capable and configured for specific duties. But we will keep in mind your pearls.
That’s your opinion, which is fine.
Here’s mine.
A.) They ruin the balance and pointing characteristics of a weapon that was always meant to be Rapidly employed and aimed at CQB distances, where getting the first accurate shot off is paramount.
In using the 4 and 6 round sidesaddles, I’ve never found this to be an issue.
B.) Side Saddles are about the slowest and unsteady-est method of reloading a shot gun there is.
It is far from the slowest and usteady-est. It is right there on the shotgun, mounted in very close proximity to the loading port. It is in the same position and the same place every time. That may not be the case with belts, pouches, bags, pockets, and slings.
C.) Side Saddles impede proper slug transition loading from either the top or the bottom.
Since I’ve trained to do just that with the sidesaddle, I have no idea how this is true.
D.) Side Saddles impede the rapid employment of the weapon from the weak side muzzle down sling carry position.
Again, absolutely not my experience with them. If I’m slung with a shotgun, it is in African carry. With a sidesaddle. And without this impediment that you’ve found.
(You can talk about single point slings all you want, But that old bastard, who’s pretty salty with the shotgun, who’s innocently and non threateningly carrying that 18" shotgun muzzle down on the weak side, on a conventional sling, sling swivel about mid stock, is the guy you really need to watch. Because He’ll slap that thing up and kill two or three of you before your handguns clears the holster.)
I have no idea what this prose relates to.
I’ve always had this theory that people just think hanging shotgun shells on the side of a shotgun just makes it look more like a tacticool deadly weapon, rather than like Elmer Fudd’s turkey gun and that looking scary tacticool seems to be really important to a lot of people on the Gun Webz.
I honestly don’t give a damn what my shotgun looks like. I care what it acts like. I care that it works. I care that whatever is added to or taken from it serves a functional purpose. That’s it.
Fact is…While it doesn’t look nearly as tacticool. An Eagle (Site Sponser) Active Shooter Rig. The one with just the webbing, with a Couple of MOLLE dump bags stuck on it. One full of Buck and one full of Slugs.
I have an AS bag. But I don’t use it as the primary reload. First, it has to be carried. That means I have to take the time to grab it. If I have that time, great. I may not. Furthermore, I now have a bag hanging off a shoulder that may or not may not stay with me if I have to move around a lot. It more than likely will not be in the same place, unless I take more time to secure it to my belt. I don’t like those situations.
In addition, the sidesaddle is always on the gun. I’ll always have a reload without having to take any further action.
is much much Faster.
Debatable at best, but I disagree.
Carries substantially more ammo and you can even add some velcro to the back and fold up the sling…For those of you that just have to hang it on the shotgun because you can’t conceive of keeping track of your gear any other way.
Keeping ammo on the shotgun has less to do with not being able to master the level of intellect required to pick up a bag and more to do with wanting to always have a reload available without any additional steps. I’d rather set it so that I can’t get it wrong as opposed to just managing to get it right.
Now I’m sure, that someone will be along shortly to tell me that Shotgun Yoda, Sensi Billy Bob at the uber Tacticool training course says Side Saddles are the greatest thing since the invention of the pump action. Which is fine…But the old shotgun salt who taught me. Imparted this tiny bit of wisdom…and now I’m imparting it to you. “I don’t give a **** if Han’s Vang is selling them…Hans Vang’s got a house payment and a car payment like everybody else and knows there’s a demand.”
Again nice prose, but the fact is sidesaddles serve a purpose and they work. Maybe not for you, and whatever shotgun sage it is you follow. If you don’t want to use one, that’s fine. But I don’t think it is necessary to belittle those that do, or attribute them as geardos or incapable of keeping track of their gear.