Ok, at the risk of dropping another bilge pump into the sewer, I’d like to ask a real operator question. Nowadays there are so many different “versions” of the famous M4/M4A1/+ for civilians to purchase, what’s the consensus about the 14.5" (with pinned muzzle device) in an extremely light weight carbine, on a high quality system (such as BCM or Daniel Defense, and yes I know there are others) with a mid length gas system. To run this without a can, at my local, monthly SWAT team get together.
Questions;
Any reason a mid length with 14.5" bbl (correctly gassed) won’t run right he best of them?
Is this new key mod hand guard here to stay?
Particularly https://danieldefense.com/firearms/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v11-slw.html
This is new for DD but I like short and middy gas system.
Because I believe a mid length has fewer problems and is a softer shooter.
I’m sure if you used our search feature and browsed a little more, you would see that KeyMod vs. The World discussions are numerous, and the same with LW barrels.
Having both a 16" carbine and a 14.5" pinned carbine, if I had to do it over I would simply run with a 16" carbine or middy. The 14.5" pinned only saves you about 1 1/4" in overall length and makes it much more difficult to modify the carbine in the future. Personally it think the best deal going that would meet your needs is the Colt 6720 which can be had for $800.
Judging by your post/thread history, I suggest you do a few searches and dig up some past discussions on these exact topics – they’ve been talked about & debated extensively.
Pretty much all ask the same question: “I want/like ________ rifle because _____ . Tell me why or why I shouldn’t get it.”
These types of threads go nowhere on M4C because the community doesn’t really give a shit about what brands you do/don’t end up buying, but rather whether or not you were an educated consumer about your purchase. Sure, we’ll judge you, but ultimately it’s your money to spend – not any of ours’.
If it helps, go to Google and type in “site:m4carbine.net <insert your search query here>” (example: “site:m4carbine.net 14.5 midlength”)
Ok so it’s just the same cool aid. IF I liked the DD V11 for whatever reason, why would I like the Colt 6920??!!
So no one has an opinion about Daniel Defense… Let me guessMarty hurt someone’s feeling too… Geeze.
I spent nearky 30 years of my life with colt rifles and carbines which never fail to disappoint me or fail in some way. The E2 was enough to make me say never again.
Generally speaking, correctly gassed 14.5 mid length rifles are every bit as reliable as any other properly constructed AR configuration. 14.5 mid is actually my preferred set up. I never have problems with any of my uppers. However, its worth noting that some folks periodically experience short stroking issues with underpowered ammo (ymmv). If you go with a 14.5 middy, Id recommend going with bcm. hard to beat them in said configuration. If you do run into short stroking issues with underpowered ammo, you can likely resolve this by running a carbine buffer while running underpowered ammo and switching back to the H buffer for NATO spec ammo. Personally, I haven’t had to do this…just saying.
Regarding Keymod, seems like many of the big names are pushing it hard (BCM, KAC, DD to slightly lesser extent). That would lead me to believe that the system is here to stay. However, I do not see keymod supplanting 1913 pic rail. My personal feelings on keymod…I have a bcm kmr upper; I love the weight savings and generally like the slimmer profile of the rail. I dislike virtually everything else about the rail. I don’t like the actual keymod attachment system. Put it this way, if a good Daniel defense 1913 pic rail retained all of its characteristics, but weighed the same as the kmr, I would never consider any keymod system. Even as it stands now, I still really like the DD lite III rail. At around 13oz’s, its not all that heavy. Don’t get me wrong, the bcm kmr rail is a solid piece of gear…just not a fan of keymod.
14.5" mid run fine. Mine needs a carbine buffer to run tula223. H2 works with 5.56. Haven’t gotten around to picking up an h buffer.
Point is try it with the weakest ammo you shoot in the coldest conditions you’ll experience, get the heaviest buffer that will cycle reliably and go shoot.
If I was buying a rifle now, it would be a bcm ewl lw with 13"kmr and permed sf 3 prong flash hider permed. Once you buy a silencer, your committed anyways IMO. ymmv.
I agree about the 16 vs 14.5. There really is not that much of a difference unless using a qd flash hider that is longer than 1.5" for a suppressor.
As far as Daniel Defense. They are quality rifles built with quality parts. You could even get one custom built how you want it. It is more expensive than a colt, but if you are taking a colt and changing out a bunch of parts it is kinda a moot point and I would just get a custom DD rifle.
As far as keymod, some like them and some like me prefer a full rail. I guess that comes from my time in the service and not worrying about too much of a weight savings. When you have had to hump around a 25lb mk40 or saw or a 30lb m240, a 10lb m4 is nothing. It just amazes me how many people are concerned about saving ounces on a ar platform especially if they are not humping it for long distances. I can understand 3 gun I suppose, but if you train with a heavy carbine then you will preform like you train.
Your comparing apples and oranges. Not only in price, but in specs/configuration. Not making any kind of a personal dig against you, but with your vast experience and use of the AR15 family of weapons, what do you expect us to tell you that you don’t already know?
DD has had quite a following here on M4C for many years, along with Colt, BCM, KAC, et al.
It seems I’ve approached this wrong. Here’s what I was interested in hearing about.
A mid length gas system (assuming the correct diameter gas port) and a 14.5" bbl with an H buffer.
Would you expect it to run without issue?
Are the CHF chrome line barrels by DD, considered to be long life, combat accurate in their light weight (pencil) version?
Are there at least basic accessory attachments (light, fore grip)available for the key mod hand guards?
Yes I want a very light weight rifle. I’m old I can’t hold up a 10# rifle. I too have lugged some heavy kit over inhospitable terrain. I’m done with that.
I had a good 401k. I want to buy some good equipment. Yes sometimes I just want a gun because it looks gnarly or groovy or cool or WTFever it looks like.
I have no interest in buying a gun because it looks more closely like the one the their one operators used.
I have come to believe that there are a few makers that make the highest quality, highest speed lowest drag kit around.
Companies by name would include.
Noveske. I bought one.
BCM. Will get one when I decide which model.
Daniel Defense. Got one. Getting another.
LaRue. Got one coming.
LWRC. I have two, selling the M6 SL.
POF. I have two.
I am aware the last two are yukky piston operated systems and am aware of all the adverse side effects there of.
Thanks for the space. End of rant.
A 14.5" middy with a fixed gas block tends to be a little pickier about ammo than a 16" middy. If you get the barrel with a port that’s slightly oversized and with an adjustable gas block, the rifle can be tuned by the shooter. Properly tuned 14.5" middies tend to have softer recoil
Are the CHF chrome line barrels by DD, considered to be long life, combat accurate in their light weight (pencil) version?
DD makes good barrels and the lightweight versions are going to be on the good side of combat accurate. Even unlined barrels are going to take a few thousand rounds to finally shoot out. Heavier barrels handle heat better to give better wear during heavy firing schedules but that doesn’t mean a lightweight barrel is gonna melt from a couple of mag dumps. Barrels are like tires in that they will eventually wear out. How fast they wear out will depend a lot on how they are used. Bottom line- Although a lightweight barrel will sacrifice some durability for better handling, they will give good service life for an AR used for carbine classes
Are there at least basic accessory attachments (light, fore grip)available for the key mod hand guards?
Yes, there are keymod accessories and keymod rail sections to allow rail accessories to be mounted
Yes I want a very light weight rifle. I’m old I can’t hold up a 10# rifle. I too have lugged some heavy kit over inhospitable terrain. I’m done with that.
The area of the most weight savings will be in the barrel & handguard selection. A thinner barrel profile will save more weight than shortening it from 16" to 14.5. Also, keep your gasblock & muzzle device choices as light as practical. If you trust the Aimpoint Micro, weight can be saved by using a small, low profile gas block and no BUIS. The next place to save weight is the buttstock. Weight can be saved with other components, but the gains are small by comparison and sometimes compromise durability
I suggest starting with a 16" middy carbine with a lightweight barrel and basic furniture and shoot it to see what further changes you want to make.
Remember, TANSTAAFL- There Ain’t NO Such Thing As A Free Lunch. To get something, you have to give something up and you are the only one who can decide if the compromises that need to be made to save weight are worth it
Thanks. That fits with my thoughts as well. I have a rifle length, 18" bbl with an H buffer. A DD gun. I called DD and asked about using one of their shorter uppers (mid length or carbine) on this lower. They say no problem. Either should run fine, carbine, middy, rifle all on the H buffer. (This rifle came with the six pos DD stock). I’m not trying to run it on an A-2 stock. So I ordered a v11 LW upper. I’ll try a BCM key mod angled grip and somebody’s QD scout lite attachment. This should get me thru the class. My lower came with an SSA trigger so I can swap these uppers and still have the same great trigger. I haven’t warmed up to this new DD furniture. I like the angles of the stock but don’t know about the rest of it.
Thanks again.
Though I’m just finishing a build in the manner you’re interested in (14.5" BCM ELW w/ a pinned & welded Fortis RED brake) I can’t exactly comment on it’s reliability–no trigger time yet. What I can say is that it’s very balanced, even with the heavy Larue quad rail I used with it. Topped off with a set of DD fixed sights, I’m very eager to see what it’ll do.
In regards to Keymod, I have a 15" and 13" rail on a couple of my guns and I love the flexibility. It takes significantly longer to re-configure my VTAC Alpha than the Keymod variants. It could be a fad, who knows. But as of right now, it’s definitely “refreshing,” especially if you’re going for weight savings.
I ran this gun last October in a long range shooting class at The Sight Training Center in Mt. Carroll, IL. I had a different optic and was using Carl Gustav 62gr. SS109 ammo.
16" LW SIONICS Melonited barrel, Vltor MUR upper, Centurion Arms 14" CMR rail, Vltor A5H3, Geissele G2S with Ion-Bonded bolt carrier and standard bolt. I held my own against the expensive AR’s and the Remy 700 bolt guns. Banging the 12" steel out to 600 yards was done.
It far outperformed my expectations since I live in the MTV Real World and could never justify shooting anyone at 600 yards. I am also not a competition shooter.
As someone who has not bought nearly as many ARs/barrels as others in this thread, but has used and bought a fair number…
14.5" sucks as a civilian. Barrel profile matters more than that 1.5" of barrel length in weight. Unless you have an SBR/MG lower or are allowed short barrels by an agency or the government, 14.5" is the worst barrel choice. Get a 16" midlength and it’ll run just as smoothly, have more muzzle velocity, it’ll work with more types of ammo, and you won’t notice the difference in barrel length.
Last year, I built a carbine using a BCM 14.5" mid-length barrel. It runs very well. It is smooth and accurate. Of course, I use only 5.56 brass-cased ammo. Here are the specs on the upper.
TGD Firearms Billet upper receiver (made by New Frontier Armory)
AIM Surplus NiB M16 Bolt Carrier Group
BCM Gunfighter Charging Handle w/ Mod 4 latch
BCM Standard 14.5" Mid Length Barrel, Stripped
BCM Low Profile Gas Block (steel with set screws) .750
Midwest Industries 12-inch Gen2 SS-Series One Piece Free Float Handguard
Midwest Industries G2SS PANEL KIT (FDE)
JP Enterprises Compact Tactical Comp with Persuader Front End
MAGPUL MBUS front and rear sights
Aimpoint PRO
