Mag release is too far forward…I think we already know that.
Fortunately, I remember a paddle release that works sideways that can be used. http://www.taclatch.com/
So we got that out of the way, now…something I hate…the damn charging handle. It’s bad enough cocking a g3 clone/cetme is sloppy, but unfolding the handle itself is ridiculous. Seems like something that may not be operated very well if the user is under stress.
is it possible to replace it with an mp5 solid cocking handle?
I think with these improvements, the g3/cetme/etc might not be that bad. One can argue, just buy an FAL or dpms308 for the same price and have every thing you want on it from the start. Well we’re just going to ignore that right now.:p:D
While the system has merits (including excellent reliability), it was designed for gorilla sized Germans. Due to its design, it is hard to improve upon the platform. The system still remains nearly identical today (with the exception of a rail and optic mountns available) as the time it was first fielded.
You mention not having fired one… I’d recommend firing one first. The recoil in .308 isn’t that fun. 9mm guns are awesome (MP-5/HK94) but the .308 even in semi is a brute.
The platform has been used worldwide to good use and is still serving in several armies. As someone with a choice, slapping some more lipstick on a pig isn’t going to help. There are many better choices for a .308 battle rifle.
Just my opinion and we all know what they’re worth.
There’s not a lot that you can do to improve the ergonomics. Installing a paddle mag release helps, but the selector and the cocking handle are what they are.
Also, the rolling lock mechanism makes for an extremely dirty operation. If you think an AR with a DI gas system gets dirty, the Vorgrimmler roller locking mechanism rifles with fluted chambers are really bad.
Fortunately, the real deal (HK, HK contract rifles) work when filthy.
Of the three major legacy main battle rifles, the G3 is my third choice, behind the FAL and M14, in that order.
You gotta remember the 91 is a semi version of the G3. The paddle mag uses the same hole as the full auto trigger pack. Thus if a gun has the hole in the receiver it is a machine gun per ATF. So to make an importable semi, it can have no hole thus no paddle mag. And this is why gunsmiths have to be very cautious when installing a paddle mag. if you drill the hole all the way through you have just manufactured a machine gun and that is one more HK91 that can no longer be owned by a civie.
I don’t think you appreciate how a HK roller lock firearm operates. Those rollers are strong as hell in order to keep a .308 discharge locked up without the need for a gas system. This is why you have to drop a roller bolt into a vice to unlock the rollers if you accidentally lock the bolt when cleaning before it is installed in the rifle. And you need some leverage to unlock those rollers when in the gun. That is why you have the G3/91 system and a charging handle with a crapload of leverage. A fixed MP5 style charge handle would never unlock a .308 rifle. That only works on the 9mm because there is much less pressure and the 9mm bolt doesn’t lock up as strong.
Again I think you completely miss the merits of the system. There is no gas system. There is no piston in the action. It is basically a controlled blowback rifle. Not much to go wrong with that and that is why they are so damn reliable. Pretty much AK reliability and the same or better accuracy than the FAL. And better controllability than all of them (FAL. M14, AR10) in select fire.
You really do need to shoot the G3 to fully appreciate the HK91. Even better if you can shoot the FAL, M14 and AR10 in full auto at the same time. That said, ironically, when it comes to the semi autos the FAL and M1A are superior to the select fire variants. The G3 loses a little in the semi auto version.
Paddle releases are the only ergonomic upgrade I’d really recommend.
I don’t see why you couldn’t swap the cocking knobs, but I don’t think you’re going to get enough surface area to grip on with the mp5 knob. It takes a lot of force to unlock it, like steyr said.
You gotta remember that it is the leverage of the folding cocking handle that actually unlocks the rollers. You could never do that with a MP5 cocking handle. This is why clones that aren’t spec’d right don’t unlock the rollers when there is excess gap. The result is guys hitting the cocking handle with mallets or wedging them on the edge of a shooting table trying to break the rollers open.
Now once you have unlocked the rollers, then you are only working against the recoil spring and you could have a MP5 type cocking handle. But it is still a pretty stout spring and designed to keep that heavy bolt carrier from tearing a sheet metal receiver to pieces. And honestly, once you understand how the cocking handle functions and stop expecting it to be like charging an AK, the HK cocking handle is no problem.
The only legit complaint I’ve ever heard is about the selector lever. And really there is no way to improve it given it’s location. If you extend the lever (as an option on modern MP5s) the damn thing screws with your thumb placement on full auto. So everyone does the HK tilt where you lean the rifle out to the right a bit in order to get your thumb all the way around on the selector.
The worst part about HK’s as compared to other rifles (besides being as clean as a chimney) is that it is a real pain in the ass to unload the magazines by doing anything other than shooting the rounds out of them. The G3 is bad, but the HK33 seems even worse.
Great info here… I had a HK91 and sold it - kept the FAL and M1As. It was a cool gun to have but, like others say, shoot one first. They are the heaviest recoiling of the bunch. I never shot one on full-auto but I would imagine they are pretty brutal - but others here say not so bad…
I’ve really come to realize, most guns abide by the maxim - it is what it is. You can’t really do much to change a large number of guns out there (except ARs, 870s and Rem 700s). To make significant changes only creates problems in another area…
As far as the cocking lever goes, as Steyr said, you definitely need the folding handle to have some length to it for leverage.
REAL HK’s, and real factory G3 rifles (Hellenic Arms/Springfield Armory SAR-3, 3/8, and 8’s) MKE (Turkish), FMN/Pars International (Portuguese), etc. shouldn’t require a gorilla to work the cocking mechanism if everything is set up.
PTR’s, Century Arms, etc., aren’t factory G3’s.
Here’s the cocking handle of a HK 21E, which made an appearance at our local New Years Day machine gun shoot. They’re longer and more robust than a typical G3, and I’ve heard of guys retro fitting them onto G3’s and HK 91’s.
The Swedes took their AK-4’s and machined the iron sights off, welded a piece of M1913 rail on the receiver, and went with an Aimpoint as it’s only sight system.
These are issued to the Swedish Home Guard reservists, the front line troops use a variant of the FN FNC called the AK-5.
Proper training can overcome a lot of mechanical issues, however, there is no way in hell I’d choose a HK 33 over a Colt M4A1.
In legacy battle rifles, I’d choose a factory FAL over a factory G3, but I won’t deride someone’s personal choice of the G3 over the FAL as long as they know what they’re doing.
The G3 is/was one of the most commonly used rifles in all kinds of battle in some of the deepest shit holes in the world, and they work, even/especially with poorly trained troops.
Not ideal, but effective.
You have to remember that Vorgrimmler designed the prototype of these in the last days of WWII and they were designed to be built as cheaply and as quickly as possible.
BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL! BUY A FAL!
If you’re going to mount optics, the weight issue is kind of a wash. The rifle is a pound lighter than an M14 and a pound heavier than an FAL. Plenty of good greek and port contract rifles out there. Just add the original mag release, makes it a totally different experience.
If I was going to put glass on a semi-auto 308, I’d choose the G3 over the FAL or modern AR10/DPMS, it’s a dinosaur, but it’s a solid dinosaur with lots of options. If they start making good AR10’s again at reasonable prices, I’ll toss my G3 in the sand.
Wanna hear a funny? Of the three, it is the ONLY one that is controllable on full auto. I personally find the recoil of the 91 and the FAL about the same, and both are more than the M1A. But on full auto, and I can’t explain why, the order seems to reverse itself. The G3 becomes the most manageable.
Sure, you can also say the Russians won the space race. But most people would laugh at you for doing so.
I don’t think anyone would suggest the FAL is not a battle worthy rifle. Several countries have replaced that rifle with the G3. I’m not aware of a single country to replace the G3 with a FAL.
Now is the G3 still a battle worthy weapon today? Probably no more than the FAL, M14 or AKM.
Totally agree. And if HK still produced the G3, I think we’d have seen this just as the Stoner rifle eventually got one.
I’m assuming you mean the location in relation to the buttstock/pistol grip as the buttstock is fine as is. But a more ergo position simply isn’t possible given the internals. If you put everything above (such as on the M4/M16) the pistol grip would extend down another four or five inches. The whole idea was a modular self contained trigger group. This has a tremendous advantage over other firearms, but there is a cost.
I love hearing this one. It’s kinda hilarious. Compared to the AKM series, the G3/91 has a custom match grade trigger. But you never hear anyone complain about the AKM trigger. And for a military rifle with a select fire option, it’s about just right. You really don’t want set triggers when you have a happy switch option.
They do, already exists.
And there is a reason for that. The G36 is little more than a AR18 in a modern plastic frame. I don’t dislike the G36, but the G3 is rather impressive.
