'Less-Than- Lethal' Ammunition...

General Firearms Reloading & Ammunition
1

I am thinking it might be a good idea to have some ‘Less-Than-Lethal’ 12 gauge ammo on hand… ‘just in case’…

I am thinking of the possible scenario where a person or group of people are up to no good, but there is not enough ‘just cause’ for lethal force. I am thinking: rubber ball loads, rubber buckshot loads or beanbag loads…

I have seen ALS ammo in ‘Cheaper Than Dirt’… but the cost is outrageous!!! What brand(s) do LE use, and is it cheaper and available for civilians?

Comments and advice, please…

2

seems like a good way to get into trouble, to me… seems like every time somebody tries to have good intentions, they just get screwed. i imagine that any situation where you’d be justified in shooting with less-lethal, they’d hit you with charges under the pretext that if you didn’t need deadly force, you didn’t need to shoot to begin with, or that if the situation wasn’t severe enough to call for actual slugs, that you were not justified in using rubber balls.

they’re called “less lethal” for a reason- they’re still in the “lethal” category, and people do still die from impacts.

3

Use something lethal. It’s better when there is no one left alive to dispute your story.

4

So you are thinking I should let it go until it gets to the point where LETHAL FORCE is warranted… and just use regular ammunition?

I understand what you are saying, I just could see wanting another option… maybe?

5

if you did do it, i’d use a dedicated shotgun with stark color contrast and configuration. even trained police and soldiers occasionally grab the wrong weapon or ammunition, and use deadly force when they intend to use less-lethal.

i cannot imagine taking aim and firing on somebody with a shotgun, or any firearm, if i didn’t thoroughly intend to kill the shit out of them… totally alien concept to me.

if you’re in a situation that calls for lethal force, use it. if not, use the cell phone instead- if the situation escalates, you still have the option.

6

as stated above, “Less THAN Lethal” is a huge misnomer, but very common. however it implies that that ammo CAN’T be lethal.

better to stick to calling it what it is, which is; “Less Lethal”.

in some areas/departments, LEOs have “less lethal” SGs available. these are usually CLEARLY marked with yellow(?) or orange stocks and sometimes the stock even says “LESS LETHAL” on it. that’s great for LEOs to have an OPTION, but they also have backup, other officers on scene, and LETHAL options for backup.

in a confrontation for an average citizen, it’s something else to deal with. you’ve gotta be able to go to a lethal tool to stop whatever the threat is IF needed.

while DE-escalating a situation is GREAT, i wouldn’t want to wade into it with only a less lethal option available.

so, OC/pepper spray can be a useful tool, i’m not really big on any of the rubber or bean bag rounds. as mentioned above, shit happens and yuo could still get in trouble for using lethal force and possibly killing someone who didn’t “need killing”. and that could lead to manslaughter charges… depending on events and your local DA/prosecutor.

do NOT take this as advice to “just let it go until lethal force is required/justified”. but if you tell the subjects that the cops have been called and that you have a weapon… umm they’ll probaly either gonna get the heck out of there, OR they’re gonna need shooting.

don’t mess around with “racking the slide” or warning shots. leave that for the TV dramas.

start taking flash photos of the subjects. (flash if at night) but again…they’ll either GTFO or they’ll come after you to get the camera and the evidence.

but it will probably be their actions that determine your actions. if they’re a threat that needs shooting to stop the threat… shoot until the threat stops. don’t “shoot to kill”, but “shoot to live”.

7

I don’t have time for a more detailed answer right now, but among other things I am a LL instructor for my department.

I don’t find shotgun bean bags very useful in my experience.

You’d be better off with a paint ball gun to use for what you are thinking about. Seriously.

Maybe one of the longer range bear sprays, the bigger one’s that look like a fire extinguisher.

The video camera idea is a good one.

8

this is not bad advice.

i still think you’re asking for trouble, but it’s a hell of a lot less trouble than blasting somebody with a beanbag or rubber ball.

9

I am currently LE and a Less Lethal Instructor. My advice would be to stay away from any Less Lethal Munitions unless you are properly trained in their deployment. As has been stated, they are “Less Lethal”, which means their is still a chance of lethality. Also you never deploy Less Lethal Munitions without lethal cover. So unless you are going to have someone covering down for you, it is probably is not a good idea. Just my .02.

10

I was talking about ‘if’ there is a civil unrest situation… I never said there is a continuous situation that is out of control. If that were the case, your idea is sound. I did that in the past when a kid was doing graffiti in our neighborhood. It stopped it quickly.

All of your advice (everyone here) is good… mixing ammo (lethal/non lethal) is never a good choice. LE has dedicated shotguns for lethal/non lethal… I know that, too.

My expected scenario where I thought there may be a use for ‘less than lethal’ was during a civil unrest situation where LE is not nearby… and my thought was to run-off teenagers who might be taking advantage of the situation to be stupid. I was thinking ‘deterrent’ without being lethal… and I was expecting the ranges to be over 50 feet. You would have to see my property and neighborhood to fully understand.

11

I would think in the situation you described, “civil unrest,” “no LE available” you want the deterrent to be the good chance of getting daylight shot through em if they mess around too much.

12

mobs are very dangerous… they have an angry herd mentality, and can stampede at any time. i’d definitely accept nothing other than high-capacity, easily and quickly reloadable firepower, at that point.

13

I wouldn’t do it dude. Even if you are trained in the use of LL munitions, you are taking on a huge amount of liability by adding them to your personal defense options as a private citizen. Keep in mind, to deploy them, you still have to point a shotgun at someone which no one is going to know is stoked with LL munition. If you aren’t trained in the use of bean bags and the like, you can easily kill someone because the proper deployment of them is counter-intuitive to standard firearms training. LL means just that… “Less” does not equal “Non”.

14

I have a dozen or so of those rubber buck shot 12 ga shells. I keep them more for less-lethal animal control. They’re about as loud as regular bird shot.

…I’d never have a bird gun deployed for defensive purposes anyway.

15

I understand… I would not us anything ‘less than lethal’ against a mob. I am thinking of a narrow definition of events where LL could fit. I am thinking of a small group (2-3) who is getting ready to break into a car, or break into a house. I am not thinking of a circumstance where deadly force would be acceptable, but where ignoring it would seem wrong. Calling 911 might not be an option in the situation I would be talking about, and civil unrest might mean you are on your own for a time.

I should perhaps forget this whole thing and just keep a low profile until it crosses the line allowing me to use deadly force. I would find it hard to ignore a property issue of a neighbor, and just wait until it affects me personally. But, perhaps this is the best approach legally.

16

Remember though, they don’t know it’s less lethal. You would be escalating things by firing the LL munitions. Even if they were were just there to steal property, you would be giving them cause to return fire.

17

Very true… I heard of someone who tried to rob a store with a toy gun that looked real. The suspect was shot and killed at the scene by the store keeper. The store keeper was not arrested because ‘a reasonable person would have felt the gun was real and thus feared for their life.’

I am thinking I won’t go this route. Good points are being made here and on another thread I started on this issue.

18

This is an important point. It’s also important to point out that less lethal is not non lethal, nor does it mean you can’t manage to cause serious bodily harm.

You can put someone’s eye out, which is a big deal, legally - you’re not going to have a good time in court explaining why you put out some dude’s eye (or both of them) by shooting at them in some circumstance where buckshot wasn’t justified… and if buckshot is justified, and you can’t simply leave, then you don’t want to mess around with something that might just piss them off.

Someone using rubber buckshot, beanbags, OC, whatever, at work, is going to have training in how to articulate their use of it and in the dangers inherent to the tool, and they’re going to be able to point to that in court. They’ll also likely have responsibilities, legal powers, and a job to do which precludes running away.

19

Good points… and I already have abandoned the idea…