I already have my pump 12 gauge and defensive lethal ammunition for it… my question now concerns ‘less-than-lethal’ ammunition.
I was watching a program on bears that are coming out of the wild and invading Mammoth’s populated neighborhoods. The authorities there try to ‘run them off’ back into the wild, often employing beanbag, flash-bang or rubber ball 12 gauge rounds. It got me thinking that I might want some to have on hand, since I live in the foothills here in CA and we see a lot of coyotes and some mountain lions in our neighborhoods. I could also see a possible use if we had widespread civil unrest, too. It could just be another ‘choice’ in my ‘toolbox’, so to speak.
I am wondering about how legal such things would be for civilians to own and use (the flash-bang rounds might be illegal here if I am not LE), and what the best brands are, and the expected costs. Anyone have information about this subject?
Yeah it would be hard for you to get Flashbangs (or at least the ones I’m thinking of). As far as less than lethal rounds, you can buy them online and at gunshows. They are pretty pricey though for what they are…ALS is the brand I’m most familiar with.
I think that may be the brand I saw in ‘Cheaper Than Dirt’??? If so, I recall something like $23-25 for only 5 rounds!!! I find it very hard to believe that it actually costs anywhere near that to manufacture them, and I would guess that LE pays a lot less, too.
The price definitely deters me from buying Less Than Lethal ammo, but I do understand the need for it in your situation. How about implementing a potato gun? Hot spuds at coyotes and lions haha
You may want to look for some " shellcrackers " … They are basically a M80 that is shot out of a standard 12 gauge shotgun… They are used primarily by the farming industry to keep birds and deer out of crops and they have a big bark without too much bite… They are sold at most farm supply stores and run about $50 for a box of 20…
Fiocchi Ammo maks a load of 12 ga Rubber Buckshot for crowd control. The 2 3/4" shells contain approx 12 small rubber pellets the size of 00 buck and can be had in 10 rnd boxes…or at least that is how I got mine. If you plan on using them beyond 15 yards plan on using at least a Modified choke.
I’ll second that. Also a big one in WY when I was growing up to get coyotes off land were hand loaded salt rounds. Had a family friend that use to get paid to drive around a gulf course with a 410, these rounds and shoot at a group of teenage vandals that had gone overboard. That discussion is a very vivid memory from my childhood. My father wouldn’t teach me how to pack the load though when I asked later that night, so I have never loaded the round in questions.
The “shell crackers” are used all the time too.
As a side note, it is most likely that Mammoth is sprawling into the wild, not that bears are “coming out of the wild”.
Perfect… this is what I wanted… multiple viewpoints, more information to consider, more information to look into and do research on. Thank you one and all!!!
I am starting to reconsider the 12 gauge ‘flash-bang’ type loads… here in the So CA foothills we have seasonal fire danger. Any fireworks that make a report (go BOOM) or are aerial in nature are illegal. The ‘flash-bang’ loads are aerial if the trajectory is right, and could start a fire in dry brush. I should forget about this option.
The ‘shell crackers’ make a report, so the same situation applies as to the ‘flash bangs’. I should also forget this option.
The coyotes in this area are always moving when spotted, never foraging or stalking… so far. No percieved need to scare one off or defend against one, really. The mountain lions that have been spotted (very few, actually) do appear to be stalking small children or domestic pets, so the situation here is more likely going to need a lethal response if any at all. The ‘less-than’leathal’ idea is probably not a good option for the 'critters, I suppose. I should probably forget this option, too.
As far as people needing to be motivated to move on without a lethal response while in a civil unrest situation, I am thinking a lot about the atmosphere DURING such an event. A low-profile would be best, and anything that goes BOOM might bring LE (or the National Guard) down on me instead of anyone else. Civil unrest usually cultivates a ZERO TOLERANCE atmosphere if LE or the NG are on site. Anything involving the firing of live ammunition (lethal or not) could get a strong LE or NG response. The exception (at least here in So CA) would be if LE or the NG set a perimeter and did not go into a ‘hot’ area. In a situation like that it might be best to fire a live round into the air (or near the suspects) to scare them away IF the need arose. If you don’t own a store (I don’t), this need is maybe not too likely amyway. Being that I would be defending a house, I should probably just try to stay mostly indoors and keep a low-profile if civil unrest comes into my neighborhood, and think DEFENSE not OFFENSE. Perhaps this whole idea on my part is silly. I should probably forget about the whole thing, actually.
And finally… YES, there is a City ordinance against discharging a firearm in my neighborhood/area. The only acceptable exception would probably be the defense of life or property. Our leaders here have firly liberal leanings, and I don’t need to get locked up.
I appreciate the responses… really… however, I am thinking I need to forget this idea.
I could envision a scenario of civil unrest… I could envision a person or group of people obviously up to no good, but where their actions do not warrant lethal force. I could envision a person or group of people getting ready to do something illegal to property… I could envision firing 12 gauge ‘rubber ball’ or beanbag rounds at their butts… I could envision a desire to motivate them to find another neighborhood to bother…
Understand is one thing, turning that understanding into an action, could result in some serious consequences. Entering a room temperature state comes to mind.
Maybe, MAYBE, Just Maybe could I understand having one less lethal round followed by 00buck or slugs. Akin to a warning shot, but aimed at the individual/s.
The problem there is you are using lethal force by firing a shotgun at them. Regardless of if it is loaded with bean bags or buckshot.
It looks like California defines firearm as:
any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.
So even though you’ve fired what is considered a less lethal round, you have still used what is constituted as deadly force. I’ve seen BB guns written as deadly weapons in assaults.
One fo the members here makes less lethal rounds, and here is what he had to say some time back on the subject of homeowners using LL rounds:
[quote]I was browsing the Sportsman’s Guide website and noticed that they have Fiocchi rubber buckshot loads listed. How practical would this be for home defense?
I make the shit and I will tell you it’s a bad idea.
Mike Aultman
Dir of Training/ Gen Mgr
ALS Technologies
870-445-8746 www.AlsTechnologies.com
[/quote]
You posted:
One of the members here makes less lethal rounds, and here is what he had to say some time back on the subject of homeowners using LL rounds:
I was browsing the Sportsman’s Guide website and noticed that they have Fiocchi rubber buckshot loads listed. How practical would this be for home defense?
I make the shit and I will tell you it’s a bad idea.
My reply is simple… I would never advocate LL rounds for home defense. I would use ‘Low Recoil’ 00 Buck for that. The guy who ‘makes the shit’ was probably not thinking of someone employing LL ammunition outside of the home, and at a distance. I am talking about outside, and at a distance… I am not talking about a situation where deadly force is warranted.
Hot spuds at coyotes and lions haha