I carry a 3" folding spring assisted knife.
Also carry the ASP Key Defender OC. And I am certified with OC spray.
I use an ASP Palm Defender OC spray as part of my off duty/EDC.
I like the fact that it only looks like a mini Kubotan and not like an OC spray. Most people have no clue what is.
ASP makes three sizes as well. The Palm defender is the smallest at only 4.5" long.
The use of force continuum for LE will look something like this:
Officer presence
Verbal direction
Soft empty hand control
Hard empty hand control
Intermediate weapon (in order, oc, tazer, baton + k-9)
Deadly force
That said, non LE operate under a slightly different set of rules but will ultimately judged under a standard of reasonableness in the eyes of the law of your state. LE personnel are trained in the lower uses of force, and are thus expected to use them (if reasonable) to effect a lawful arrest of violators. I do not expect my 100lb fiancé to demonstrate a straight arm bar takedown before using her OC, simply because she saw it done once.
Defensive measures in a non-LE situation are exactly that - defensive, to stop the unlawful use of force by another against you or a 3rd party. If your use of OC has that effect, you should be fine IMO.
Read a story on one of the gun forums about a guy and his wife who got into a minor altercation with someone in a Lowe’s parking lot. As the couple was attempting to leave the guy ran up to their truck and grabbed the gentleman’s wife by the arm. The gentleman responded by spraying some Foxlabs in the guy’s face.
Seemed like a reasonable and likely scenario where OC was the proper response, and since I read that story I carry spray with me now.
The wife thinks I am a freak because I give it as a Christmas present. She says that Christmas presents should be about happiness or some such nonsense.
Glad to see so many mentioning the ASP Defender.
I’ve carried one for years, and eventually bought one for my son and wife (who don’t EDC lethal).
I think it’s a great product, and I make sure to buy the inert (Cool) inserts when I change out the Heat, which I try to do annually. That way we can train (presentation, deployment, etc…) with the old insert, use a cool one, and then insert the new one.
Drew
I personally think that having a less lethal option is almost as neccesary as a lethal one. In addition to my Glock I almost always carry my Foster Brothers blackjack. 11 ounces of lead on the end of a coil spring plaited in leather.
The way I think of it is that I am more likely to run into an encounter that does NOT warrant deadly force than I am one that does. Good example is the classic drunken asshole- If my MUC skills aren’t up to the task and leaving isn’t an option I’m going to have to go hands on. I can’t shoot someone who is about to throw a haymaker my way. Mabye if I was a woman or midget I could articulate the need but being 6’4 240 that excuse doesn’t fly so well.
Do I have the skills to go hands on and win? Most likely. But one upping is always preferable. So instead of getting into a fistfight I tune him up with a blackjack, mabye he ends up with a broken collarbone or hand. Beats me busting my hands up and catching some kind of nasty funk from the cuts left by his teeth on my knuckles (been there). Better chance of winning and less effort on my part while still justifiable.
I also see some have mentioned OC, based on my personal experiences being OC’ed (and seeing dozens of others get the same treatment) I have absolutely zero faith in it as a deterrent. It certainly beats harsh language but… Mabye it works well for some of you but it’s not for me.
Aren’t blackjacks illegal in many states? Also would any jurisdictions consider the blackjack a deadly blunt force weapon?
Like anything else they are legal in some states and not in others. I know for a fact they are legal in FL because the concealed carry license specifically mentions “billies” as something you can carry with your CCW. Check your state law’s weapons section- Anything can be called a deadly weapon if used as such, that’s why I limit my use to body and appendage shots. Head shots with a 'jack with any ass behind them will result in coloring books for Christmas time or death. One of the hardest things to do when carrying a jack is to have the self discipline to not smoke someone in the grape with it unless you don’t mind killing them.
I have Sabre Red OC; it’s powerful and accurate and I like the button design because it’s pretty tough to hose myself.
Problem is, I don’t carry it regularly about half the year because it’s too warm for a coat and if I put anymore junk on my belt I’m going to have to start wearing a cape.
Same with the flex-baton; I have one but I rarely carry it.
I suppose kneecapping and pistol-whipping aren’t considered ‘less-lethal’ right? 
I would like to see a court case where an armed civilian intentionally shot an unarmed attacker in a non-vital area and argued that it wasn’t lethal force. I’ve always wondered how that would turn out.
-'b
Exactly. We had them taken away from us at my old agency, because one of our guys went full auto on a guy that probably only needed a shot or two, and sent him back him to nursery school.
And yes, they are a felony to even possess in some states.
Can I ask you guys (because I really don’t have an answer) what you’d do after you used your less lethal alternative? I mean, you’ve just sprayed a guy with OC or tasered somebody… now what? Do you prepare to draw your weapon in case it didn’t get the desired result? Do you retreat? Do you call the cops? Just wondering.
Thanks,
-'b
The “book answer” is to unass yourself from the scene if possible, commit as much as you can to memory call the cops and give them a detailed description of what happened.
Assuming whatever you do doesn’t work and you can’t leave, what happens from there is largely dependent on how good of a storyteller you are. In some situations you’d be justified in using deadly force if you have exhausted your other options and are “in fear of your life”. But as a general rule “well I sprayed him with OC and that didn’t do nothing so I pulled a gun on him” will get you sent to jail unless you are a cop.
However “This madman attacked me out of nowhere and I was forced to defend myself by OC’ing him, and then I was in fear of my life when he tried to choke me so I had to shoot him” will probably work more in your favor. In the end it comes down to you are justified in meeting non deadly force with non deadly force and deadly with deadly so unless you can articulate that you were in fear of your life, your pistol should stay in its holster.
again, i preface my post by stating i have very little less-lethal weapon training-
so long as you train to competency with whatever method, system, and/or tools you plan to use in a “real life” situation, the escalation of force will hopefully come natural to you. i cant think of too many situations where an armed attacker should be met with non-lethal force… can anybody else? if somebody is coming at you with a knife, OC is not appropriate, and i dont care how well you think you can get him. billy club? ASP? from a self-preservation standpoint: the level of force displayed to, or used on, you should be met with overwhelming force. that is to say, that level of force necessary to quickly and efficiently defend yourself. to me, this means if i’m faced with OC, i need to respond with something “above” OC on the deadly-scale. i think if somebody possesses a weapon capable of incapacitating me, i’m perfectly justified in using deadly force, as being incapacitated puts me in a state where even hands alone can easily inflict upon me serious bodily injury or death. the simple fact that i carry a gun makes this doubly so.
this also lends, in my mind, a bit more evidence to my previous assertion that less-lethal is generally not a good idea for non-LEO civilians- it just further mucks the already cloudy mental waters of thought. what do i do? which weapon do i grab? OC? ASP? gun?
i’d rather simplify the question to “is my life in danger?” yes or no. shoot or don’t shoot.
I think pepper spray is a great idea. If somebody or something is trying to kill me I can just go straight to deadly force. Don’t see it mucking up anything in the thought process, there are things that are threats that aren’t legal to shoot. Pepper spray is great for loose dogs when I am walking mine for instance. I hear it also does wonders for belligerent drunks engaging in preassaultive behavior.
I think I would be famous world wide if I had shot every dog that has attacked my dogs while they were on leashes, or would have been arrested in the first incident, either/or.
You nailed it.
Great topic and some good posts in it.
IMHO, Kelly McCann gives a great, no-nonsense approach to the continuum. He puts OC in front of hand-to-hand, followed lastly by lethal force if needed. I think this is a logical approach for most CCWers who simply won’t put in the time necessary to become proficient in hand-to-hand defense. Despite all the talk about “going hands on”, it’s not as easy as most people think it is to try and control the more violent and aggressive felons out there. They have had nothing better to do over the last 10 years but fight and workout in prison. They have been using violence most of their lives to get what they want and they’re used to having it used on them as well. Going hand-to-hand with someone like that only makes sense if another option is unavailable or you’re so skilled in acting violence on another person that you can beat him cleanly. Most people aren’t the latter…
Geoff Thompson has said it best (IMHO) when he succinctly summed up his 17+ books on (unarmed) self-defense in one sentence: “Learn to hit foookin’ hard”. Despite having an extensive background in judo and other martial arts - and having probably been in more violent altercations than have been lied about on the various message boards this month - he readily admits that a very hard, pre-emptive punch to the chin was the only unarmed tactic that consistently worked against the bad guys. His perspective in general on the subject is fantastic.
For the rest of us, it makes much more sense to tilt the odds in your favor with a weapon. OC is much easier to use than some sort of a contact weapon and it’s truly a non-lethal option (as opposed to some sort of club). Like anything else though, it needs to be trained. Getting used to being exposed to it is great advice, as is understanding its effectiveness and limitations. Also, using it in conjunction with defensive or offensive movement is also a good idea (i.e. spray and run or spray and follow with a punch). I’m in the process of trying to take my own advice and get better at using it.
On my key chain is a brass fob about 3" long by 3/4" wide. It is about 1/4 " thick, it is on a large ring that allows me to put my fingers in it and carry the tag like a kutoban. It is engraved with my union and the phrase “Bloody Thursday 1983”. That date means something to me and my union.
The point of this ramble is no one will give the brass key fob a second thought until it hits them in the ribs or temple.
It has gone thru airport searches and has been on several cruises without any quibble.
I also have a folding knife in the cup holder in my car, and of course there is my car.
None of these items are illegal in Kalifornia, but I feel a little better protected without carrying OC or my Glocks and the attendant problems they can cause if used.
Lol. Good advice from someone who obviously knows what they’re talking about.
Immediately made me think of my first field training officer, a 45 year old former marine. At a family fight, the huge husband started a struggle with me, and as Jimmy Dean said, “a crashin’ blow from a huge right hand” delivered by my FTO, ended the fight before it started, with teeth and blood all over the place, and an all but unconscious subject. He looked at me and said, “there, forget that arm twistin’ shit they taught you in the academy, that’s how you deal with an asshole who wants to fight”. I wondered why he wore gloves, even on day watch…
I took his advice, and it served me well, back in the days when loosing your teeth and/or a concussion was a more socially accepted outcome of trying to fight with a cop. Most of the time, they were just so surprised that you punched them, you could hook em up before they figured out what happened. Kept me from getting hurt/killed by guys that could have easily beaten the shit out of me.
Food for thought…
A firearm can easily be used in a less lethal mode, while sprays and other such things are difficult to use in a lethal mode.
Lethality should always be an option. I don’t want to carry around a “Batman Belt” full of options.
Sprays are less of a deterrent than guns, when you point them at somebody. Nobody fears for their life when you point to can of spray at them.
Using it as a club, or even pointing your firearm at someone, is using lethal force legally.
And not everyone will fear for their life when you point a gun at them. A much higher percentage of them won’t, then most would ever guess.
If you have good justification to use lethal force, it’s a moot point. A less lethal alternative is for those gray situations… like when two guys are threatening to stomp the crap out of you, and you’re armed and scared they might take your gun. If you shoot two unarmed individuals, you will likely have some problems. Pepper spray them and be forced to shoot them when they continue their attack, and you’ll reduce those problems.
Hey, I don’t always have a less lethal alternative on me when I’m carrying, (my hands aren’t quite the alternative they were when I was 30.) But the concept and reasons behind carrying less lethal are certainly valid.