My objective is to source a tactical light for my AR-15 in a HD role. The light should support target id out to 100m for either irons or T-1 RDS employment. No NVDs anticipated.
Inasfaras datapoints go, I have a SF E2E as a handheld and a SF forearm on a Mossberg 590. (Both are incans). I have a TRL-2 on a railed handgun for bedside. The TRL-2 output is fine for engagement distances and interior HD use. For exterior application, I’m looking for a little better performance than the SF forearm light provides.
Looking at the Lumen Factory offerings, the specs appear impressive (as do Malkoff’s drop in modules). The one thing that caught my attention when reviewing the LF specs was that bulb life is rated for 20 hours - is that fairly standard? Assuming proper shock isolation, 20 hrs doesn’t seem all that much. (No idea how long SF advertises their bulbs to last)
If that is “fleet average”, which is the prefered choice?
SF G2 w/ aftermarket drop in
Malkoff M60 (LED 235 lumens)
Malkoff M60L (LED 140 lumens)
LF EO-6 (Incan 200 lumens)
LF HO-6 (Incan 160 lumens)
LF D26 LED (LED ______? lumens)
I’ve thought about rigging flood lights to illuminate the edges of the property (much bigger bezels, right? :D) and I’m certainly interested in hearing what a suitable light output should be that cover indoor and outdoor tactical light needs.
Is 235 lumens overkill? Would 110-160 be better (augmented with property lighting)? The 65 lumens from the SF 623FA works okay indoors, but doesn’t project far enough outside.
The G2 body in a VLTOR offset mount looks like a reasonable choice - question is on what bulb / output to choose and is the 20 hours of bulb life from LF considered normal?
as much as i like the X300 for sheer compactness etc, like misterwilson said, the G2 with drop-in LED is the most cost effective, and depending on the drop-in LED you can get 250+ lumens, which will have better reach than the X300’s 110 lumens.
G2 + drop in = $35 + $25-40 = $60 to $80, with 250+ lumens, plus mount = ?
X300 = $225 with 110 lumens.
i recently replaced all my incan bulbs in my flashlights with 4 TNVC drop-ins and 2 lumens factory D26, and i’m really glad i did. with half spent batteries, the incan bulbs grow yellowish and dim while the LED modules shine bright.
Sure, they ADVERTISE 250-290 lumens, but we both know that’s not accurate.
I picked one up from THIS GUY and while it has marginally better throw than my X300, it doesn’t have as much spill and isn’t as well suited for indoors as the X300 is.
Meanwhile the X300 is still awesome indoors and has 95% of the throw at 40 yards or so.
Btw, I am in no way associated with that gentleman, I’m just a happy customer who thinks that at the price of $20 DELIVERED, that his product is a great bargain. Dropping one of those into a G2 body makes for one hell of a dedicated rifle-light. It’s literally too bright for general purpose utility light as the hotspot is TOO bright. When looking for things in a dark closet it hurts your eyes, while the standard G2LED bulb is just right.
Another consideration is to put an aftermarket LED into a G2 or G2LED body. The G2LED features a metal head that’s supposed to dissipate heat better which allegedly allows you to get better life from your batteries. I don’t know how true this is or whether it’s worth the extra $20 to have a metal head, I’m just passing along what I’ve heard.
ETA: Also, just for educational purposes, my experience with the older Surefire Scout light (with the last generation KL4 head) was that it was the greatest indoor rifle light in the world. It could simply flood a room like no other. It was even good out into your front/back yard, but beyond that it was lacking - It didn’t have any throw at all.
I thought it to be a one trick pony. It does that one trick better than anything else but beyond that… And we won’t even talk about battery life or retail cost. I have heard that the newer model’s head has improved upon these shortcomings but I lack the experience with it.
Thanks for the perspective and link to the other thread. It appears that current production LED has a lot more going for it in terms of lumens, power consumption, and durability. Sounds like a G2L (for the metal head) is on the short list in a VLTOR offset mount.
The balance question remains. 235-290, or 110-160 lumens, given both Indoor and Outdoor environment need? Would 235-290 be overpowering in light-colored hallways?
Especially if you shine it at a white wall in front of yourself.
In my limited experience I have found that LED lights don’t have as much range and become more diffuse. If you are looking for something for 100m then a standard bulb may work better.
I find that P60 bulbs last me about every 2-4 sets of batteries in 6P and G2 hand held lights. This is why I converted most of mine to the new P60L bulbs.
It sounds like the LF incans @ 20 hrs of useful life is in line with the SF incan offerings.
Rather than go ugly early, I think I’ll try the 140 lumen Malkoff drop in and see how that works for the indoor / outdoor environment. The >200 choices have me a little concerned with light colored walls everywhere in the house.
If I backed the requirement for positive ID to 50m, does the 110-160 range work? I can’t see swapping out the weapon light in the middle of the night just because I have to assess the perimeter of the property when it was originally set up for indoors. (Although, that may be the perfect arguement for another AR - “Honey, this one is just for indoor use, we need another one for the outside!”
Pk14 - the problem with finding a balance might be that’s not too bright for indoor use and bright enough for outdoor use is that you might not get the reach outdoors.
here’s a proposed solution that might get you both - get a high-output LED that will give you enough reach outdoors, and put a beam diffuser on the flashlight for use indoors: http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/carfnbr/249/prrfnbr/867/FM34-Beam-Diffuser
i have a diffuser on my M961, which without it, is too bright for indoor use. the diffuser changes the bright hot spot into a flood which lights up the room with a much larger area, plus it decreases the output of the lamp. the diffuser takes only half a second to flip out of the way for outdoor use.
If you want something that will really throw light outside, there is NO other choice than the Dereelight DBS. I am a member of a forum dedicated strictly to flashlights, and the general consensus is this is the best compact LED thrower out there. (Even better than incan lights of the same size)
If you want, you can buy different LED “pills” that can vary output levels. The only thing I don’t like about them is you have to cycle through the levels. Another good option so you can get multiple levels of output without having to cycle through levels with the main switch is the Lumapower MVP Sidekick.
Don’t be afraid if these are companies you haven’t heard of, these lights far outclass anything Surefire, Streamlight, or any other major (see: advertises a lot) maker out there. It shouldn’t be hard to find mounts that will fit these lights, their diameter is about the same as a Surefire 6P.
So a light “outclasses” Surefire because it is brighter? There are many more important features that make a light suitable for serious work. Reliability under adverse use is much more important to me than max brightness. I am sure that SF tests their products under more varying conditions than Fenix/Dereelight/etc and that is what people are paying for.
That said, I have various Night-Ops, Fenix, Malkoff and Lumens Factory offerings that I use on a regular basis and SF will definitely have to work much harder in the future to keep their status intact. Competition is good for all of us! Well, maybe bad for my wallet…
Folks who know a lot more about lights and electronics than me have identified component testing, sourcing and quality, overall build quality, quality control, and resultant safety and long term performance of the lights as the primary variables that differentiate a light like the SF and others.
The SF guys are pretty candid about the tech features of their lights and why they’re different, without denegrating others.
A rep from one of the smaller and more recent comers discussed the differences himself, agreeing that there were many. He found it analogous to guns, where the demands of some users will produce or mitigate differences between the lights and components therein.
A double-E friend likes building LED lights, and taking apart those he’s brought. His hygiene and social skills are weak, but his tech-fu is strong. He concurs with the above.
These are clues, so there are Surefires in my pockets.
