Well, before the Gen 4 issues came along, the Glock 17 was arguably the most reliable out-of-the-box pistol around.Of course, not that all Agencies used that particular model.
This is not a fiscally responsible move and if I were a Honolulu resident I would be angry that my tax dollars were being wasted.
And Surf reported on these pages last year about how he was involved in fielding well over 1000 Gen 4 G17s in Hawaii with great results.
???
Here’s the thread for discussion of the Honolulu gun destruction: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?173220-Honolulu-destroys-575G-worth-of-police-firearms-(Article)
This ^^^^ the guns destroyed were rather old and tired S&W 5906’s . It was still a waste of money but it’s not unexpected given the extreme left lean of HI politics.
Here’s the deal with TX DPS and the M&P’s:
-
The primary reason for switching guns from the P226R DAK in 357 was not gun issues. It was a caliber switch from 357SSIG TO 9 millimeter driven by cost, logistics, and the improvements in 9 mm duty ammunition since the mid-1990s when the 357 SIG was adopted.
-
Many of the staff at the Dps Academy range, including the former unit commander or PPC competitors who had ongoing relationships with Smith and Wesson. The M&P was unilaterally selected by the Academy range staff without input from firearms instructors for troopers from the field. Supposedly the M&P 9 mm’s T&E’ed by the Dps Academy staff worked great and did not show any of the accuracy issues associated with earlier M&P 9 mms.
-
The first basic recruit class of 2014 were the first DPS troopers to receive M&P 9 mms. During the firearms training for this recruit class the majority of the guns issued experienced reliability issues, specifically failures to extract and eject, rear sights drifting in the dovetail even with the set screw tightened down all the way and magazines ejecting from the guns during strings of fire. Strangely enough, given the M&P 9mm’s history of accuracy issues none were noted. The accuracy was good when the guns worked. There were enough problems that the recruits were quickly retrained and qualified on the p226 in 357 prior to being sent out on the road.
-
early in 2015, Texas DPS held trials for selection of a new 9 mm handgun. This was an open solicitation and the testing staff included troopers and firearms instructors from the field as well as the Dps Academy staff. The Gen 4 Glock 17, the HK VP 9 and the SIG P320 FS All passed the requirements. The Smith & Wesson M and P and the Beretta PX for storm were among the guns tested which did not pass the requirements. There hasn’t yet been a formal announcement, but rumor has it Dps will be going with the sick P320. This makes sense given Texas DPS has been and SIG agency ever since giving up revolvers 20+ years ago.
For whatever reason it seems the 9 mm and 357 versions of the M&P have been the most problematic. The agencies using the 40 and 45 caliber versions have had good service. For example, here in central Texas the two largest municipal police departments, San Antonio PD and Austin PD both transitioned from Gen 3 Glock 40s to the M&P 40 witjout any widespread issues.SA PD has approximately 2000 officers, Austin is a bit smaller but I believe they also have over 1000 officers.
Just throwing this out there based on what I’ve seen…
I’m a cop and now full-time LE trainer at a police academy. When I left the street 7 years ago, the M&P was making steady gains in LE holsters in my home state of Arkansas. In the last few years; however, that has almost stopped completely. We train approximately 120 officers each year and 95% use Glocks in .40, but the 9mm, and particularly .45, are making huge in-roads. The M&P has gone the way of the 8 track tape. Finding one in an LE holster here is like finding a unicorn. The remaining 5% is occupied by the Sig Sauer P-series handguns. XDs haven’t been represented in several months.
I think many officers initially wanted to be loyal to S&W as an American company, and so for a short time, they tried the M&P, but the design’s gritty and inconsistent trigger, along with the terrible 9mm FS accuracy and barrel issues, it just died on the vine. Plus, Glock has wisely advertised in magazines and social media how many hundreds of thousands of dollars they donate to American LE charities, and they are now manufacturing guns in the States, so officers have gravitated back toward the more established G22, G17, G21…Plus, when you factor in the well-publicized M&P failures with LE in TX and CA, it has helped killed interest in the pistol. As Ken Hackathorn famously said of the M&P problems, “S&W snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.”
On the civilian side, I have a friend who owns a very successful pawn shop. He said that with the exception of the Shield, they can’t give M&Ps away. Same thing with XDs. He said Glocks are his most consistent sellers by far.
There you have it, as someone who has dipped a toe into the M&P waters also, I came away with one conclusion; no thanks.
I’m really pretty surprised to hear this. I have always recommended M&P to people who aren’t particularly into Glocks, and I’ve never personally had any kind of issues with one, although granted through a significantly smaller sample size. Guess I’m going to have to start telling people Glock-way or the highway…
I’d point them to the P320
After personal extensive experience with the GIII G17, M&P9, 92/M9A1, P220, and VP9, the M&P was far and away the least impressive. I can’t say I blame anyone for moving past it - literally any of the others performed far better in the particular role of full-size duty pistol.
My agency is the largest in the state and we just dumped the M&P. Now we have a choice between Glock (17 or 21) and Sig (320, 226, 227). Nothing but problems with the M&P. Cost had nothing to do with it either as we buy our own pistols, they aren’t supplied by the dept. From this point on I won’t own anything with M&P on it…
Oklahoma HP just chose the Sig 320 for duty issue in 9mm.
S&W does not have a great track record with auto loading service pistols and despite the fact the M&P had a lot of potential from a design and layout point of view S&W has failed to push that pistol to its full potential.
‘Snatching defeat from the jaws of Victory’ is how I have heard it described before and based on the numbers of M&P’s I see in a typical class ( 1-2 in a class of 15 or so - compared to at least half the class shooting Glock’s) I’d say S&W missed the bus
Apropos of nothing, I’d guess that quite a few of the early M&P sales came from agencies who ran Sigs and classic S&W’s and not Glocks. I think that with Sig finally introducing a striker fired pistol they will take back a lot of those former agencies from S&W making this trend even worse.
My admin refused to go Glock for the decade I’ve worked here. Our P220’s are being swapped out for P320’s in .45 in Oct/Nov. I feel like a lot of agencies that bought M&P’s wanted a striker fired gun that wasn’t a Glock.
I own 3 Glocks (down from 5) so I’m not a hating on Glock I just know from experience that admin in some LEAs have worked their whole careers with dislike of Glocks, mostly for irrational reasons.
I have owned 4 M&Ps’. Except for the one in .45 they were terrible in both 9MM and .40. Honestly I would of thought the Sigma would of taught S&W a few lessons, but apparently some people at S&W are asleep or just plain stupid.
I had an m&p pro 9 mm and m&p 45
Could never get used to the spongey trigger on either.
Plus the magazine springs on the 45 sucked. I had rounds half way through the magazine get stuck. Swapped out the springs several times because they get bent
Sold them both never looked back
I don’t think they missed the bus, they just shortened it by a lot.
For those willing to dump more money into what should be a working gun (basically 1911 types who want a double stack 9mm and don’t balk at shoveling cash over to fix issues out of the box - more or less describes myself) the brilliance of the platform is the draw, but having to buy piles of Apex and 10-8Perf. parts out of the box to get the best out of them really leaves a lot of vacant seats.
I think the bean counter calculus fell on the side of getting big contracts by being under price for the package was the least risky approach to making sure the original R&D paid off, but I’d be a lot happier with a base gun that cost $100 brand new but didn’t need as much work… but that gun wouldn’t have gotten as many big LEA contracts early on.
The ‘fleet stripper special’ equivalent, to borrow car vernacular, kinda sucks for a lot of these reasons, and that’s why I totally agree with the sentiments of that first part - it should have been a giant hit, just needed somebody in the upper echelon corporate decision making world to put faith in the engineering staff that they had gotten it right, and build a slightly pricier to make gun that nailed all the key tolerances the prototypes did.
I still see most cops around here carrying Glocks.
Still, there is no reason to put up with the M&P when there are several other striker pistols out there that flat out run 100% out of the box. The Walther PPQ, HK VP-9, Glocks and now the SIG P320. Pick one and chances are it will be head and shoulders above the M&P.
S&W has a history of making some excellent d/a revolvers but their centerfire autos have always been lacking.