Lead - Update

General General Discussion
1

gentlemen,

been thinking about lead lately. my wife is usually pregnant, and i’m usually shooting… i wear shooting gloves, and TRY to remember to put gloves on when cleaning guns, and always wash up good… but all the same, it just seems like a regular shooter just has to be covered in lead, spreading contamination around all over the place.

so i’m hoping to start a little discussion about the dangers and implications of lead from shooting. and i’m not just worried about contamination to my wife and kids, but also myself. i know they say most lead ingestion comes from eating/smoking/touching your face after shooting, rather than inhalation. well where does the lead come from on your hands? surely gun smoke contains quite a bit of lead. the primer has lead, and the back of the bullet is usually exposed lead. when a round is fired, that exposed lead is vaporized, which is what causes a lot of the fouling in the barrel. furthermore, especially with pistols, the whole area around the muzzle gets caked in soot we call “carbon,” but is probably substantially lead fouling… that stuff gets all over your holster, hands, sleeves, etc… and, especially with ARs, and especially with SBRs and suppressed weapons- gas to the face. i’ve taken in some pretty nasty lung-fulls of “gas” from ARs in my time. running a drill, breathing hard to begin with, sucking wind through your mouth… and it always seems that you’re sucking in just as the weapon is jetting another stream of gas into your face. how much lead absorption do you get from that? how much lead ends up all over your face? will your wife get some contamination when she kisses you as you walk in from a range trip?

and how well does lead wash off? if you’ve got it all over your hands and sleeves and probably everywhere else, what’s it take to get it off? will putting lead-contaminated clothing in the wash spread lead all over the load, or is lead pretty soluble? does it all wash out and down the drain? when washing hands, how much of the lead are you getting off? and does lead absorb through skin when mixed with the hardcore solvents we use to clean guns with? sometimes i feel like shit while cleaning my guns, even in my power-ventilated shop, and wonder if the shit isn’t soaking in through my skin.

and lastly, just how BAD is lead? how much does it take to cause problems in grown men? children? pregnant women? how many shooters have actually had problems with lead ingestion as a direct result to their gunstar lifestyle?

i told my wife to get a BLL check next time she’s at the doctor, just to see. i’m really not sooper paranoid about any of this, but i’d sure hate to be slowly poisoning my family because i was stupid/ignorant. i’ll get mine checked next time i’m in too.

any info/links/experiences with high BLLs/etc anyone has would be much appreciated.

thanks in advance.

2

One thing I do when I play with solvents and chemicals is put on some of that chemical glove lotion or cream, like Clearshield, or other brands, that create a silicone layer on your hands to keep stuff from soaking in. I also try and use more friendly cleaning agents like M-Pro 7.

I don’t know much about the lead aspects of it though.

3

Lead contamination is real, but the biggest preventative is washing your hands after shooting, especially before eating, smoking or other ingestion. Regular washing of clothing and footwear is sufficient, too.

Our range staff used to get checked every 6 months, given the number of times we shot or were present when others had to shoot. We had no significant levels of lead as result of exposure, and we have an indoor range. We decided the policy was unecessary after running it for five years.

Now, disposal of lead inside a backstop or casting lead bullets without proper ventilation is another thing altogether. Use Tyvek suits, gloves, boots and ventilators when cleaning out bullet traps.

From what I understand, high lead levels generally manifest as symptoms of fatigue. Try not to lick the walls and stuff…

The only lead poisoning I worry about these days is the direct penetration method. That’s a bad day at the office.

4

Lead is pretty bad stuff if you get it in your system in high enough concentrations. I went through the same worry when my son came into the world. First and formost you need to take all the hype and hysteria about bad things with a grain of salt. We all grew up with lead paint. I played with lead toy soldiers, didn’t eat them, but handled them regularly and most likely touched my mouth, face, eyes…during and after play. Still alive and relatively normal :).

What I did and do to this day is that I clean up after shooting. My clothes come off in the laundry room aka garage and I go directly to take a shower. Used to do this no matter just to clean up in general as I shoot outdoors and the sweat, sunscreen… needed to come off. For cleaning I use Mpro7 simply cause the wife doesn’t like the smell of other cleaners. If I need to use something harsher I go outside. I use disposable rags so there is no chance of getting anything mixed up and into the wrong hands.

Just as a CYA we had my son tested for lead on his first year docs visit and he was normal. Pretty much if you take normal precautions to protect yourself you are also protecting your family. Unless your kid likes licking you all over or the likes you should be ok.

5

I read somewhere, for lead accumulation to occur it has to be in the really fine form. The larger chunks of lead arent dangerous or ranges would be toxic waste dumps.

6

You aren’t being paranoid. Lead poisoning causes neurological damage and won’t go away on its own. I belong to an IDPA club where most of the shooting is at an indoor range with poor ventilation - initially I got a chuckle out of the guy wearing a facemask. Then I talked to one of the most active competitors who mentioned that she and three or four of the others have actual lead poisoning.

According to her, the treatment she’s undergoing involves some kind of chemical drip to remove the shit from her system. She says her doctor told her to take calcium supplements right after shooting and that somehow helps clear up recently ingested lead.

Obviously this is all third-hand but I have no reason to doubt her. FWIW, I tend to feel crappy after our matches. I’ll be getting my own BLL tested at my next physical.

7

I shot with NH TAG back in 98 time frame and we were shooting indoors at a weekly practice time. Mas Ayoob showed up and wore a ventilator mask like you see when spraying paint or whatever. I was told he had similar problems at the time. Don’t know if this is true about him but he was taking it seriously.

8

I have nothing else to add to the topic at hand. But I just found your opening line quite funny my friend. :stuck_out_tongue:

Although I will add this.

and lastly, just how BAD is lead?

I would rather be on the receiving end of it than be poisoned by it if that gives you any indication.

9

A shop teacher I had showed symptoms of lead poisoning. He said it was from when they used leaded gasoline to clean their hands.

10

what were the symptoms? what did he do about it? esplain, por favor.

11

Headaches more often but he shook most of the time, I am not sure on any treatment though.

12

At a local rifle league, a regular shooter and leader of the league found out the level of lead in her blood was approaching levels that could cause damager and were irreversible.

She used to clean/set up/take down/sweep at the indoor range without gloves or a respirator.

Now, she still goes to this indoor league every week, but wears a respirator and gloves. The lead levels in her system did start going back up… it turns out you need to keep the inside of your respirator clean as well.

13

Contrary to the above, I was under the impression that heavy metals (mercury, lead, etc.) do wash out of the body. If it didn’t, you could only eat X number of fish in your lifetime. However, maybe I am confusing lead accumulation with actual lead poisoning. Anybody?

I do know that a single BLL test will only be an indicator, and that if it is anywhere elevated you should probably begin a testing regimen. I tried to have a test done on me after 3 days of sitting 4 feet away from a machine gun muzzle firing approx. 5k rounds per day, but apparently it was too much to ask for with the necessary paperwork and program that has to be started.

I want to believe that changing clothes, washing with cold water, and wearing PPE while cleaning/handling spent brass is enough. It’s awfully hard not to hydrate on the range, and sometimes I don’t get to leave it in order to eat.

14

I had lead contamination when I was 16/17 from working on an indoor range. One step down from lead poisoning.

Not fun.

I’ll make a longer post about my experiences and what I have been told by the doctor that treated me all those years ago in a while.

15

i cant even imagine how many times i’ve eaten on the range or in the field after firing X number of rounds… i wasn’t even really aware of lead dangers from shooting until a few years ago, and they NEVER said shit about it in the Army.

as to the question about cleaning lead out of the body, i’ve read a bit about it, and it appears “chelation therapy” will bond the lead in such a way that you can start shitting out cumulations. sort of like biliruben, for those familiar with bilirubenemia (jaundice). but clearing the lead out doesn’t necessarily mean a reversal of damage. apparently it’s much worse with children, as it can cause developmental problems, than with adults.

16

Docs actually recommend that you limit your intake of fish for this reason. Look at the EPA and Australian gov’t docs in this link. My understanding is that metals accumulate fast and leave the body very, very slowly, tho I’m no expert - which is why you use the chelation therapy bkb mentioned to get them out of your system faster.

17

Hahaha. Wait…you’re not supposed to do that? :smiley:

Seriously, after 18 years as a small arms instructor, I’ve had slight lead contamination (a couple points above normal), so now I usually delegate that job to the younger guys.

18
19

I used to use latex gloves too, but my understanding is that they don’t protect you from chemicals in the cleaning solvents, etc - some are pretty toxic. You need nitrile gloves for that.

Forget where I read that, I think it was one of Ayoob’s books.

20

i use nitril for everything… gun cleaning, working on cars, i even wore 'em to cut concrete fiberboard today. latex doesn’t hold up to solvents well, and tears really easily