It’s about damn time.
Appendix holsters are great for CCW. You know, situations where you holster your gun safely in your bedroom, pull your gun out to shoot a bad guy, and then immediately call 911.
They are not great for high round count classes where you are drawing your pistol (and more importantly, reholstering) 100+ times where the instructor is deliberately trying to induce stress and fatigue.
Disclaimer: I use an appendix carry holster every day.
I saw that post on FB as well. I AIWB everyday and would never AWIB in a class that was not geared specifically to concealed carry. I don’t blame LAV one bit and considering there have been TWO ND’s in related classes by other instructors it’s just plain good horse sense.
Most folks attending classes have only shot on square ranges that don’t allow drawing/firing/re-holstering so it’s not in good form to do it for the first time with live rounds no less a hundred plus times in a course oriented for combat handguns.
There can be a lot of derp already with retentionless open carried 3:00 OWB in open enrollment and LE classes. If class conditions aren’t conducive to the extra cautions required of AIWB, it makes sense.
Are there threads on the other two ND’s. I keep hearing about them but haven’t read anything.
I carry AWIB EDC. You need to be deliberate and aware every time you holster the gun.
I see his point and also believe in his business, his rules.
I know of one of the two incidents that LAV speaks of but I won’t speak about them unless I’m granted permission and I wouldn’t speak about it in an open forum. I carry appendix most of the time but I only practice presentation with an empty weapon. It is a fast and very concealable mode of carry but it is way too dangerous. I would not allow it when I am teaching either. Appendix carry has become a fad in the shooting community and the cool guy status in this situation has become more dangerous than what it’s worth. I am pretty certain that you will see this AIWB ban across the board in at least the higher end shooting instructor group.
If I dare to throw more common sense into my post, think about this…
Most shooting ranges are in semi-remote areas and not too close to trauma centers. Why not be cautious instead of cool?
The restriction makes sense. Unless you have known a particular group of students for several years and are familiar with their ability, you have to establish certain restrictions on equipment used in courses.
so what makes appendix carry more dangerous as opposed to 3:00 or 4:30 carrying? Assuming all are IWB
The person using the equipment. If you have a ND with a holster located at another position, there is less chance of serious injury.
Also, depending on how you draw, it’s more common to sweep your neighbor.
Unless you are a super skinny 6 pack wearing body type, you can not watch your muzzle into the holster. Some of us have a thicker mid section and the view gets obstructed. You cant see the opening in the holster or any obstructions. And before anyone flames me that I shouldn’t have to look into my holster before holstering, I’ll tell you this. Unless you are a cop that has to go hands on immediately after presenting his weapon to say use handcuffs or control techniques, THERE IS NO REASON TO HOLSTER QUICKLY!
This mode of carry was invented by a very thin DOJ agent who used a Sig P228 and was able to place his thumb on the hammer while holstering which would prevent the weapon from discharging if something got into the trigger guard while holstering.
^^^^^ I’ll bet I say this 30 times a day during a pistol course. If you have the pistol out of the holster, you obviously felt the need. Why get in a hurry to holster it?
Mr. Vickers is being generous. I don’t allow appendix holsters, shoulder holsters, cross draw holsters or SERPA holsters in my courses. People don’t always use their thinking cap when operating under stress. Sometimes people grumble about the holster restriction, but no one gets injured.
I Aiwb carry daily in vg2. Holster is removed to reholster. I do live fire often, but it’s holstered slowly. I also draw to minimize muzzle sweep.
Aiwb in class sounds like a bad idea.
I don’t teach shooting - I teach forensics (including firearms/ballistics) to future LEOs (Criminal Justice students).
That being said, I do have a lifetime of shooting and training at a lot of schools under my belt, so I do “add” some personal opinions into my lectures and labs in addition to all of the science I throw their way. The above statement about restrictions on holsters - especially for intro-level LEOs and such - exactly mirrors what I pass along to the students. Hell - you should see the holsters used in the old “leather slap” competitions I shot in during the 70s!!! Talk about unsafe! Saw a guy put a .357 158gr all the way through his thigh drawing from one of those - uncovered trigger guard!!! He was lucky - bullet path was parallel to the femoral artery:)
Stay safe!
john
That.
I get LV’s thinking…I run an INCOG for my G26, and always re-holster slow and careful… but then again, any holster can still bite you if people do stupid stuff. I used to work with a female officer who while practicing at the PD range forgot to decock her P226. Went to re-holster (and this was with a duty belt rig) and shot herself in the ass.
I personally disagree. If its not a CCW class, then maybe. But so many people blabber about “train like you fight” then start stuff like this. How many people actually carry AIWB on a regular basis? I sure as hell did when I was in VA. I understand his point, but to me it seems to be your typical knee jerk reaction that doesn’t actually fix the problem. The problem there is a training issue. If it can’t safely be moderated as an instructor, maybe Alias needs to restrict the class sizes more. It sure would’ve made my Pannone class better. Of course I do respect him and his position, but it just won’t be something I pay for. The SERPA thing is similar but I agree with that one because there are so many better holsters that fill the same roll. An entire carry position though, I’m not completely convinced.
The more I began to really look at gun safety and critically apply the four rules, the more I began to see appendix carry and shoulder holsters as a poor idea with a greater opportunity for things to go wrong.
Certainly a “very responsible” person can do it without incident, but that isn’t everyone and if I was the guy in charge of a “group of unknown shooters” I’d probably put similar rules in place.
If I were in LAV’s position, I’d probably do the same thing thing–for liability reasons, if nothing else.
When I’m at a class, I use an OWB holster that I never use to carry concealed. I get the “train as you fight” mantra, but that’s not really true. IMHO it should be “practice as you fight”.
Practice is all on you.
Are classes training? I thought classes taught, and you went home and applied the education to your training.
I totally agree with LAV on this. Despite “keep your finger off the trigger no boom” mantra it is just more dangerous to carry saftey-less, light trigger weight, short trigger travel handguns. They are easy to shoot because they are EASY TO SHOOT Add appendix carry to this and stress and you have increased the odds of Glock groin. These guns need to be in rigid, preferably OWB holsters. Just my opinion.