Looking to pic up a AR. Savings are still growing, but I like both of these. the KAC comes with top notch gear, but I don’t like thye LMT stock, but thats something small. The PWS is a piston system, which I don’t really care about, but it has all the furniture I like, but I haven’t been able to find out much about them. I am still contimplating a BCM middy, and a DD M4V3, but these are both new options I never really thought about.
Oh, and I planto use it in 3 gun, defense, and jst my first general all around AR.
Of all the choices in your post I’d suggest the midlength BCM. Especially if you plan to run it in 3gun and or suppressed.
Not to knock a BCM, but why do you recommend it over the SR15?
I do not plan to run suppressed. What makes the BCM better for 3 gun? If I go BCM I’m going 16" middy stainless, Probley with the DD omegax and a fixed front site. I don’t plan to get optics right away. (Mostly because it would cut into my gun budget, and mt thiking is get the best rifle first, then ad things to it. I could get a aimpoint and a rifle, but that cuts my budget my $600 bucks.)
FWIW, you can sell the LMT stock and buy just about any other stock. Maybe even have enough for a grip too.
While I love my KAC SR15, I think getting a BCM that’s better setup for 3 gun is the way to go. A stainless or hammer forged barrel mated to a Troy extreme free float tube would be pretty slick for 3 gun, and would probably leave quite a bit left over for an optic.
BCM = Like the Energizer bunny they run, run and run some more. Have you seen the SWAT Magazine article titled ‘Filthy 14’? I believe that particular BCM is at 44K rounds now.
Thats kinda what I was thinking. If I put together a BMC rifle I could do it for about 1200 and that would give me enough for a optic, some extra mags, and a case of ammo. but isn’t the knight a better gun? i mean it comes with a good trigger, sights, and rail.
‘Better’ is relative to you. No knock to KAC but personally I don’t like to many things that are highly proprietary. i.e. If KAC quits making E3 bolts where will you get bolts, extractors, extractor pins, CAM pins, firing pins and gas tubes etc? Great rifles and I want one, even if I get one it won’t ever be my only AR nor my ‘go to’, competition or heavy use gun. Too proprietary to get it back up and running in minutes.
With the BCM. Standard mil-spec parts will fit it if god forbid BCM went out of existence. Just something to think about.
I have no idea why there is sudden dislike for KAC here, but if you think about how long they have been around, I don’t see reason for concern about their product longevity.
Maybe I’m missing something.
It’s no dislike for KAC Stick, actually I do like them a lot.
Im just pointing out something. If only Ford say made say brake pads, belts, hoses, wipers, spark plugs etc for my vehicles then I’d likely use something else as a daily driver. They don’t and just about every auto parts store in the US can get parts for both of my vehicles even if Ford doesn’t make the parts. Just something to think about not a sermon.
Both the pws and kac fall into that group. I guess my first instict was correct. I was thining that as I wrote the question. but I didnt know if one was realy that better or better at all than a DD or BMC.
EAG’s filthy 14, a BCM middie went over 40,000 rounds last night. I am in the class presently in Tennessee and when this milestone was achieved I couldn’t believe it was still shooting and shooting well. No keyholes or weapons failures, still running. Pretty amazing. As an owner of a KAC, Noveske, and BCM among others I think with your budget and needs you would be well served with a BCM middie.
GotM4 is quite correct about the proprietary nature of some of the parts on the SR-15.
Which is why I got 4 of them 
BCM makes fantastic guns and kit…BCM, Colt and LMT in my eyes all build or do the small things the best and thereby create a great product…I would also think that a Colt 6920 or LMT defender 2000 would run to 40k dirty just to point out.
That said, I take the SR-15 in a heartbeat as I believe its the better gun w. indeed proprietary parts that exceed the performance of the “spec” parts they replaced.
Of the rifles mentioned thus far, the SR strikes me as the runaway choice. If we were to take the KAC out of contention in favor of a more basic starter rifle, the BCM would emerge as another easy pick. The problem I see here is that you’re asking for specific hardware recommendations when you have yet to really quantify your intended applications. “All around” can mean anything, and to this point, it seems like you’re shopping based largely upon intangible likes and appearances.
Like Bolt_Override, I’ve more or less reached the conclusion that the best way to overcome the proprietary argument against the SR is to standardize upon that platform with more than one rifle. Although it sounds rather bizarre at first, in principle, it does make a fair amount of sense for private (i.e. non-agency) fielding. Given the popularity of the SR series, my take is that there will probably always be a market for the E3/IWS parts, even if KAC were to inexplicably close its doors at some point. In other words, with the number of rifles being fielded, it would still be worth someone’s time and effort to produce spares.
What I don’t fully understand is how anyone can find fault with the Crane SOPMOD stock (which KAC makes for LMT) as it still acquits itself quite well, notwithstanding a lot of more recent product development and a very crowded market. There may be competitors that one likes better, of course, but I’m not sure that I’ve ever actually met anyone that “didn’t like” the SOPMOD at face value. Such opinions usually are reflective of a simple lack of relevant experience with the stock.
AC
I can’t wrap my brain around the fact that someone would prefer a Magpul MOE stock over a SOPMOD…
But anyway…
Back when Colt was the only AR game in town, are you guys telling me that you wouldn’t have bought a Colt to defend life and limb because it was “proprietary”?
You wouldn’t have bought a HK91 or a FNFAL because they were “proprietary”?
You would have stuck with a M1 Carbine and/or an M1 Garand?
You can’t go wrong with a BCM…
With that said you can’t get a BCM in the same config as a SR15.
If you don’t like the SOPMOD sell it. Ive sold 4 of them on here in the last 1-1.5 months. I put a CTR and MOE grip on mine.
You’d be hard pressed to get a BCM in the same config as an SR15 at the same cost. BCM does not make lightweight CHF barrels, they do not make extended mid length gas systems, they do not make upgraded BCG’s, ect. Ive gone through several BCM uppers, and none match the capability and shootability of the SR15 pound for pound. If you want to drop down the weight you have to go with a “slick rail” or non-CHF barrel.
Im nearning 15k rounds out of my SR, and it hasnt malfunctioned int the last 12k rounds at least. I had a couple issues at first due to the Magpul BAD and a 20rd mag which also caused the single maflunction Ive had in my LaRue stealths.
Anyways again you cant go wrong with either Id but put an SR up on paper and in the field against anything from BCM…
I owned a PTR91, DSA FAL and a Colt 6721 lower with a 6920 upper. None of these guns were my main ‘go-to’ or main training rifles due to them being proprietary. Sure I could stock up on parts. But I know if I own a LMT, BCM or very new .154" pinned Colt that 30 years from now any mil-spec bolts will fit any of these rifles.
Have you shot your SR15 with a suppressor ? Specifically one not made by KAC?
We’ve sold several KAC SR15E3s through the shop where I work and an employee bought one. At his range he’s required to use hollowpoint or softpoint ammo and his SR15 runs 100% unsuppressed. Add his Gemtech G5 and it causes stoppages every 3-8 rounds with my BH Mk262 Mod 1 ammo. Tried it with Tangodown ARC mags, Magpul PMAGs & EMAGs, Colt mags with SAW ‘red’ springs and Magpul followers, still had the stoppages. Tried it with one of my known good BCM lowers and it runs 100% suppressed with my same BH Mk262 Mod 1 ammo. Long story short, the rifle gets returned to KAC and they return it indicating that it’s ‘in spec’ and works 100% with their suppressor (but on a different upper). My theory is that their mag catch is a little low in the receiver. At first I thought it was just the mag catch, I tried a BCM mag catch and it still had stoppages. I tried heavier buffers (tried a H and H2, KAC uses a 3.0oz CAR buffer) thinking that the cyclic rate was too high and still had stoppages. I think the mag catch slot in the lower is milled too low because if it’s a little low in the gun it may work just enough to be fine for unsuppressed use but that the added cyclic rate and violence of action causes the rounds not to present high enough for reliable feeding. It could also be that the Gemtech suppressor is giving the gas system more gas more than the KAC suppressor does which is probably why it works with their can and not the Gemtech G5. If the mag catch is too low in the receiver than perhaps their spec for the allowable tolerance should be tighter. A few years back I had a customer that brought me a Colt 6920 with a similar problem. It worked fine standing but if you shot prone while pressing the mag against the ground it would cause stoppages. It ended up being that the mag catch slot in the lower was too high.
I own four BCM rifles. Two are 16" midlengths (one’s chromed lined and the other is a SS410), the two others are a 12.5" chrome-lined (CAR gas) and a 14.5" BFH midlength. All run 100% suppressed with a AAC M4-2000 Mod 07 and a Gemtech M496 w/G5 mount.
My problems with the sopmod are purely academic. I dont carry batteries on a gun, it doesnt sheild the mechanism from accedental contact, and its realy expensive. If i get a KAC I will give it a fair shake, but I know I like the MOE/CRT. I think the heavier profile of the BFH barrel o the 410 stainless barrel would be more stable in high round count 3 gun matces, but that is a assumption. Andafter running the numbers I can build a 410 stainless BCM 16 middy for around $1500 with great BUIS, no options I dont want, and a lot of extra PMAGs. But I was really expecting to hear that the KAC would do everything great.
Aside from weight savings, there is an issue of shooting style. Chris Costa said that he prefered a smaller profile of CTR stock over a wider body of ACS - which is similar to LMT - just because how CTR allows him to position the gun on his chest.
MOA: if you thinking KAC, you also need to put in consideration what ammo you’re goind to run. KACs originally had smaller gas ports tuned for a hot milspec ammo. Smaller ports, in combination with slightly longer tube, accounted for unique soft feel. The downside is that number of KAC guns have had cycling issues with some commercial ammo - not crappy 3d world ammo, but a regular average SAAMI spec’d ammo that most people use for training. Some folks were fine with it, and some weren’t. I hear that KAC opened those gas ports, but I don’t know if it is true and if they made that change permanent. You may wanna pm KevinB, he is with KAC.
BCM, on the other hand, appears to have a bit larger gas ports, that accounts for great reliability, but may lead to some of them being theoretically overgassed. Practically, their excellent durability speaks against this being a problem.