OK, help me out here, but please, so as not to get sidetracked, can we please stick to just what I am inquiring about…these two brands…not “you should get this or that & I have this…?”…I mean, I know all the others and have looked at them, but have narrowed it down to these for my own reasons, and what I am after from y’all, is your educated opinion between just these two companies and these specific “models” listed.
A HUGE thanks to all who participate…as I have NO experience with either.
So what I am looking at is; 1. A light compact rifle / carbine in 7.62x51
2. the same as above but in 5.56NATO
As to #1, if I am comparing oranges to oranges I have these:
LaRue OBR 7.62 16"
Knights Armament SR25 Enhanced Carbine 16"
…the KAC in same barrel (16") length is 1 pound heavier…closest they have to the LaRue. However, there is a “tangerene” offered by LaRue, the LaRue PredatAR 7.62 16"…which is 2.5 lbs. lighter than the KAC 1.5 lighter than the OBR.
Hence, I am leaning towards the LaRue in a 7.62 for that very reason they have by far the lightest between the two companies.
As to #2 (5.56NATO) guns;
[b]KAC SR-15 E3 IWS Carbine 16"
PredatAR 5.56 16"[/b]
…the KAC in this caliber / model is only 1/4 lbs. heavier, non-issue here…leaning towards the KAC between these 2 companies & models in this caliber?
Now this is a sample size of exactly one but my buddy with a OBR has had a hell of a time getting his rifle to function correctly. When it does it is a very accurate firearm, but so are all of the SR25’s.
Also the group of professionals at KAC are second to none IMO.
Both are awesome quality. You really can’t go wrong with either.
I have and have had different variations of the SR-25’S and the SR15. The SR15 is truly a tough one to beat price wise. Out of the box, it’s a pertty decent rifle. IMHO, it’s always one of the rifles everyone talks about when shopping for the best AR. Throw in Colt, LMT, DD, BCM.
I’ve only had the chance to shoot two different LT rifles.
I think the problem you’ll have is sourcing a LT rifle. I have a couple relative on the waits list for their PredatorAR/OBR or whatever they ordered. The lead time is quite a bit. This is not to say that KAC rilfes are hard to get, but in my experience I never had to wait as long compared to a LT.
Your post seems to indicate that weight is a big factor. I would try to get your hands on one or even shoot one if you can. Some rifles balance better than others. It’s like sticking a 1.5lbs suppressor on the end of an AR to mess up the balance.
I prefer KAC since I have had good experiences with them.
Well, hmmm, that seems to be the case with those outside of this forum I talk to…and that thread here “show us your KAC” or something to that effect…was wildly active, so…?
But you know, many forums are subject to “fanboy-ism” …so?
OK…funny, I am gonna break my own request in my OP to keep it between LT & KAC…given the very 1st post, came up with reliability issues with LaRue…
If I changed this to the KAC 7.62 model mentioned in my OP…
…VS. the COLT LE901 16S.…which is 'bout the same weight as the KAC SR25 I listed…how does that change opinions here.
I know COLT is highly regarded here…along with KAC, so maybe this will be more relevant, and it (LE901) was originally on my “shortlist” (#3)…?
I’ve had a couple of different rifles from both companies. When you say lightweight 7.62 the PredatAR is the answer. Mine will consistently shoot 3/4 MOA groups with match ammo…for 10 rounds or so before opening up to 1.0-1.5 MOA. I’ve never had any cycling issues. I cleaned the grease off the bolt and carrier and lubed it before firing. It seems to do a little better with 168 match than the 175’s which kind of surprises me.
As to the 5.56 I believe KAC is the way to go. The 5.56 PredatAR is nice but as light and balanced as the KAC when it’s in shooting trim. The other side of the coin is it’s nice to have a pair of Larues. I don’t think you’ll see Larue complete rifles for many moons.
Hello Army Chief;
I am relatively new here…slowly starting to approach my 200 posts so I can “post” in General" as well.
You are the founder of this forum, is that correct…?
At least the senior most member?
Can you explain ( other than they are a fine company)…if there is anything other than the above in (…) to explain, why the extreme high reverence here for KAC ( maybe as much for Colt, as well?)?
Is there a strong “affiliation” or financial connection to the company?
Or…?
Just wondering.
What I have read, ( I think, I did) is that KAC was Stoner’s last affiliation or the last “evolution” of his design?
Correct me if that is wrong?
thanks to you for “weighing” in on my post.
ps. I am a 17 yr. CANCER survivor…by the grace of GOD and the very good Dr.'s sent my way…also, an amazing holistic concoction I ingested all the while thru surgeries & chemo…and beyond! Glad to see you making a comeback form that original prognosis given to you back in Dec. 2012
I love my PredatAR 5.56. In my limited experience its the best rifle I ever held and fired, then again, I never held or fired a SR15.
The only think that I will say is that speaking with LaRue last week, looking to order an 18" OBR 7.62, the wait is “over a year” but they are still taking orders. This may influence your decision making if a KAC rifle is easier to get.
My PredetARm took 26 weeks after being quoted 14-16 weeks in April of last year.
You sure changed your options around extremely quickly based on very few replys. Do you have 1st hand experience with either brand? Have you even handled one? I have handled the KAC’s. If i had about 2k burning a hole in my pocket I would buy an SR15, because It is everything you would need in one AR but I have only handled it and not fired one. I recently did however fire a Larue PredatAR that one of my customer owns and it was a really nice rifle, it also seemed way more accurate than my capabilities.
Well…as stated in my OP, I was leaning in both calibers, to exactly as you describe…with as a #3 “dark horse” choice, the Colt LE901 16S ( if the pricing ever comes back to Earth…?)…
…but wanted a bunch of input and opinions having had no experience with either company.
“You sure changed your options around extremely quickly based on very few replys”
Not really…as I later mentioned, the Colt LE901 was in close contention for me…#3 and it IS “special” can do what the other 2 cannot…be an AR10 & AR15…so, it is close and maybe in a class all by itself?
But I did not know if I really needed that…and “light” (as a 7.62) was really my 1st priority and the Colt is not.
Here is the short of it, If you want the 5.56 the SR15 cannot be compared to IMO. For the money its the most solid 5.56 AR out there.
As for the 7.62, the Larue should be the way to go. The wait time on the rifle however may keep you from wanting one. Ive heard anywhere from 8 months to 2 years so keep that in mind.
You are right on the Colt however, not a light rifle.
Don’t want to color the discussion here too much, but I appreciate your post, and will do what I can to offer some clarity.
I am not the owner, founder, illustrious potentate nor the HMFIC of M4Carbine. I was sort of holding out for the title of Oberführer at one point (I like umlauts), but that didn’t seem to gather much momentum, either. I’m actually just a regular member who keeps getting bumped up the chain; likely because everyone feels sorry for me. lol
There is no financial or inside business connection between M4C and any manufacturer, to include KAC. We do have a few KAC employees in our membership base, as well as one or two on the staff itself, but I am not sure that I have ever seen them actively promote KAC product on the boards. Mostly they just respond to questions.
You will find that the folks on this site have a special appreciation for top-quality product that is truly battle-tested and ready for hard-use. Colt certainly meets the bar here, as does KAC. This is why we steer folks toward these companies, and to others like BCM, Daniel Defense and Noveske; because they are truly advancing the art and taking no shortcuts. Our focus is upon tools that work well and are built to last, because we actually believe in shooting them and training to win.
Eugene Stoner was indeed a KAC employee in his later life, and they did give him Carte Blanche to develop the ultimate evolution of his AR design. The result was/is the SR-15E3, and it is that rifle that stands above most everything else in this class in my view. I’m not saying that there are no worthy peers; merely that it is a well-balanced, lightweight work of art that has everything you need, and nothing that you don’t. The quality is very high, and the company stands behind their product. I own one now, and will invest in others as I have the means.
Don’t have a 7.62 AR, and have never used one. I believe that I would likely be a SCAR 17 customer if I desired a full 7.62x51mm solution, but with 300 BLK and 6.8 SPC, I’ve been able to cover most of those same bases in a standard AR format. Just depends upon what you want to do. Keep in mind, though, that, if you want to fire a full-power .30 cartridge with any regularity, light weight might not be the most important variable, simply because a bit of heft helps quite a bit to moderate recoil.
Always a delight to hear from someone who has spent some time in the Lion’s Den of cancer and been given the grace to survive it. My prognosis isn’t particularly good, but yet I continue to improve every day. I’ve nary a complaint, and have an army of folks praying for me, so I feel somewhat obligated to stay healthy for as long as I can.
I believe that the Knight’s gun will be more reliable, and it’s ambi.
I also believe that the KAC gun is better than the Colt LE901 offering. As it’s purpose built for 7.62x51mm NATO, and does not posess a monolithic rail, so if the rail is damaged it can be replaced. Also the KAC has the E3 bolt, and comes with an Enhanced type carrier, if I recall correctly. (They need to start doing that with the SR15 guns.)
I am one of those fore-mentioned KAC employees (see sig line), so I am only going to discuss our product.
The EC is a very nice precision carbine.
It is one of the lesser expensive options in the SR25 line.
It has a fairly heavy barrel profile, one that is designed to provide minimized shift during extended firing. Lighten a barrel and heat affects it more. Laws of physics/thermodynamics. The ECC (flagship option, weighs in around 9 lbs) has a ball-mill lightened barrel to reduce weight while not giving up much rigidity or suffering from group shift/dispersion due to barrel heating/cooling.
The handguard of the EC is also fairly heavy in comparison to the ECC. Not a big deal to someone that wants a compact precision carbine that doesn’t mind a 10 pound gun. I personally prefer the URX3.1 over the URXII.
*Weights given are with sights, SOPMOD stocks, rail covers, and ambi controls.
One thing to remember is that KAC has delivered over 10,000 Mk11 variants, and over 10,000 M110 variants to the US and Allied militaries, not counting the commercial sales of SR25s. Having the ability to turn out that volume of precision semi-automatic sniper rifles to meet the needs of the most discerning end-users speaks volumes on its own.
Yeah, I work for KAC, but I chose to work here for a reason.
I would highly recommend KAC for both your options.
The SR15 is a very balanced and soft shooting AR15. The out of the box rifle comes with everything you need as was posted above, including flip up micro sights, ambi controls, QD sling attachment, SOPMOD stock, and a really nice 2 stage match trigger. Compared to my Swiss SIG 550s (known for their triggers), the KAC trigger is every bit as crisp and clean. The gas system they use really makes a difference in felt recoil (not much) compare to standard AR15s. I usually run American Eagle 223 through my SR15 and have had no issues. I have read that when some have used ammo that is not full powered, they may have some issues. Quite honestly, whatever rifle you get, run quality ammo through it.
The SR25 EMC (EC, ECC) has all the advantages and characteristics of the SR15 in a .308 configuration. The design is very robust and reliable. It does have considerably more weight, but this is to be expected. The shouldering and handling of the SR25 EC is very comfortable. The build quality it top notch.
As also said above, the folks that work at KAC are very responsive and professional. All my questions and follow up questions that I’ve ever posed have been answered politely and timely.
I would encourage you to visit silencertalk.com and read the KAC subforum where you can find a history of the development of the SR25 EC. The amount of innovation and R&D that KAC has done in these 2 platforms is extraordinary.
I don’t have any experience with LaRue products, I like Bobro mounts and KAC rifles. I prefer to buy from companies that can innovate.
I’m actually just a regular member who keeps getting bumped up the chain; likely because everyone feels sorry for me. lol