I believe KevinB said he remembers the Rhodesians teaching a far forward support hand grip on the FAL to help control it.
3gunners really started doing it because they were adding FF tubes to their rifles anyway so why not just make the tube long and cover a low pro gas block since they weren’t using the iron sights anyway.
Once rails were developed for Mil/LE guns the longer rails help get more rail-estate for mounting lights, lasers, bipods, forward grips/handstops.
Here’s the top U.S. 3gunner, the AMUs Daniel Horner. His rifle is a .30 Gremlin, it’s a 6.5 Grendel necked up to .30 cal and uses a 125gr bullet going 2625fps which makes Major power factor for rifle (better scoring and sometimes a lot less rounds needed for paper targets). It has a 20" barrel, don’t know what size gas system but it’s probably rifle length, 18" JP tube, and a Benny Hill Rolling Thunder brake.
I have a DD7.0, 9.0, 12.0 and LMT MRP Rifle length (the heaviest). I prefer the longer length rails. It more comfortable, can use more leverage, it’s easier to drive the weapon from target to target, and I’m more accurate shooting that way when shooting on the move since it is more stable.
I remember reading about back in the day, but can’t remember where. I’m sure the technique was an evolutionary process by certain military forces and gamers over the years.
I’ve seen him post that too, but I have been unable to find much in the way of photographic evidence of same.
But, it is part of what I’m saying. Even if that is/was the case knowing the who’s and what’s and where’s of those known for the technique today I think it’s safe to say that THEY got it from gaming and not from Rhodesians. I can think of at least one instructor who would have more of a claim on a direct line to that era and area than anyone else and he doesn’t shoot an AR that way from what I’ve seen.
Ultimately it doesn’t really matter the genesis. If it works for someone, go with it, if it doesn’t, don’t. But I think every shooter should at least try new techniques as they come down the pike provided they pass the sniff test. But you also have to be honest with yourself and take it back, apply it to your uses and needs, and see if it still holds up. A Technique that works great in a 3 day class on an open range may have issues when inside a house trying to transition to your handgun. I see too many people just pick up the bright-shiny-object in both gear and technique and never properly evaluate if it truly meets their needs or not.
Very well said. I once tried to make essentially the same point (albeit not as elegantly) as was essentially called a neophyte and a philistine. The shooting world is very much like the fashion world: what’s “out” now will be “in” again, sooner or later.
I have been using rifle length tubes, and low profile gas blocks on all my rifles for a little over a year now.
I first started it because I was simply doing what I saw tier 1 shooters doing it.
I researched it, and shot using this grip on my own and came to an understanding of why this grip is superior over other methods.
I have gradually evolved to slightly cupping a VFG to now running a handstop and kung fu gripping the shit out of the tube.
As for where it came from. I am in line with KevinB. I recall in some book about the Selous Scouts and SAS, they employed this method with their FALs. I am willing to bet from what I have seen the Tier 1 shooters that teach this method most likely got it from various types of cross training and similar exercises with other countries militaries.
I sold a shitload of BM Dissipators back when. In fact I have a ban-era Dissipator sitting in my safe (not mine though). The one I have was purchased around 1999 or so I’d imagine. Other than the weight at the time I thought they were a very good choice and recommended them to all my customers that would listen.
The problem was that they were using the HBAR, and it had the full FSB out front and the “slave” or true gas block underneath but shaved down. Not to mention it’s a BM barrel which wouldn’t pass today’s standards.
I’ve considered appropriating the barrel and having it turned down several times, but the cost has always seemed prohibitive and less than productive. I assumed that turning it down would at least cut into the holes that the FSB pins leave behind if it’s removed.
The “long handguard” evolved from me using my DD Omega 7 to a Troy MRF-R on my LMT in early 2009. I found I didn’t like not being able to use a bipod on a 7" HG because I wanted it out further. I found a great deal on the Troy MRF-R and shaved my LMT’s gas block down. It came off the weapon when I decided I wanted that rifle to be something other than .223/5.56 and by that time I had seen a Grendel build that had used the JP/VTac rifle length HG and I decided I liked the idea of positioning rails where I wanted them and not where I didn’t. It made the rifle a little sleeker, which is good, and eventually I’ll SBR my LMT when I can get the time & $$$$ to get the process going. Doing that will probably net me a 12.5" in 7.62x39 (cheap to shoot) and I’ll be able to put the Troy back on the weapon and not worry about shadows casting from the TLR-1s I plan on putting on the rifle. Have to get one of those too, but until then the TLR-1 will work just fine. Basically I like having more real estate because it doesn’t weigh as much as a 308, and if I decide I don’t like the MRF-R I’ll get a MRF-M or JP/VTac rifle length and customize.
I have always liked the concept, just never liked Olympic or Bushmaster. They used to be the only game in town for that set up.
If a reputable manufacture were to offer a dissiy barrel, or even better an upper I’d be on that like a bum on a bologna sandwich. Always felt that the platform offered alot of options for the user in a small package. I think we might see them become a fad again with all the modern techniques being taught. I’d love to see one offered my BCM or DD!
I will without a doubt say that the shooting sports community played a heavy role in its adoption into the tactical community. Hell I started out in the shooting sports world and I used to get out as far as possible on my shotgun when shooting trap or skeet for better transitional control. When getting into working carbines, we were restricted to shorter handguards. I used to burn my hand all the time on the FSP because I wanted to get further out on the carbine lengths.
When longer rails became commonly available and mindsets allowed us to use them on our working rifles, the transition to a longer rail, for a more extended grip seemed natural, but this was definitely from my sports shooting upbringing. As mentioned the competition world has been doing this for quite some time due to their set ups and there is a good amount of instructors from the tactical world who like to compete in the shooting sports world, so the cross over isn’t that surprising. At least to me it isn’t. As a matter of fact I have heard numerous top notch, high speed instructor types credit the shooting sports world. Definite credit to the sporting community. Hell they pretty much cut the path for pistol shooting also.
I had a BCM Mid upper that I sent to ADCO. Wasn’t terribly expensive to have the FSB shaved and a new one installed in the “rifle” position. Very handy, well-balanced, functional carbine, and well worth the money.
My first AR was a dissipator and I am still convinced it is a great idea, just not the way bushmaster does it. Personally I like the fixed fsb, but I really wish they would go with a lightweight barrel instead of the HBAR. To bushmaster’s credit, they do make one on an M4 barrel and I I had the money I’d get one and have it turned down between the gas block and FSB.
I’ve been a fan of rifle length handguards on a 16" barrel since I liked being able to place my hand out farther. Plus my eyes have troubles keeping the front sight on an M4 in focus and putting the front sight out further seems to help with that. Here’s hoping rifles length handguards gets more popular in the industry. If we’re lucky maybe it will merge with the lightweight barrel trend.
Lightweight barrel (of proper specs & twist), ultra-low-profile gas block (use the lightest one available) pinned in place, pinned FSB at the 12.0 location. Ideally the low-pro gas-block would be such that it would fit under a DD Omega 12.0 rail.
However, most people that go this route are going to opt for the 13.0+ rail length and mid-length gas system and understand that it will weigh less. 12.0 + gas block + FSB weighs more than 13.0 + gas block + Troy front sight (or DD, or MBUS, or whatever). Most people don’t have a real understanding for just how much, relatively speaking, the cast FSB weighs.
